Discussing Sally Mann...

[Amund]

Damn Björke - that's a GREAT idea for a piece! Wonderful. Who did those paintings? Those are great...!

silly sarcasm. silly me.

well - i normally reserve judgement on especially the most extreme judgement matter. I'd always thought of sturges as a closet pedophile. I'm not saying he IS - I'm just saying that was always my take.

Sigh, there it came, the "pedophile" word....... :confused: :confused:

 

[Sparky]

well, is there a more appropriate word? I mean we're talking about a sixty-something year old guy photographing naked 12 year old girls. I mean - let's get real here for a second.

(sorry if I seem to be having a 'conservative day' - not usually like me!)

 

[jstraw]

Yes, lets get real here for a second.

That would be a hell of an idea.

 

[Leon]

I'm not going to judge the intentions of any of the artists mentioned above. My take is if they make me feel unfomfortable, then I dont look, and I decide to carry that on for all of the artists work. That's it.

As Carl knows, I am a social worker, so fighting vulnerability is always at the forefront of my mind. My concern is for the children's feelings as they grow up and realise that people will cast aspersions like mentioning paedophilia ... even if there is nothing untowards and just creativity and art at play, will they be comfortable with their portraits (taken in seemingly quite compromised situations) in later life? And if so, is there any way they could remove that image from the public eye? (I suspect the answer is no). But then again, these are just my own internal questions, I'm not looking for answers.

 

[CarlRadford]

This thread hasn't been and isn't really about Sturges it is about Sally Mann - I'd didn't intend to go down this route and would prefer we didn't as I know there are very strong views re his work.

Getting back to Sally Mann - what makes her images of close family more than snapshots or stuff purely for ones family album?

 

[Sparky]

Getting back to Sally Mann - what makes her images of close family more than snapshots or stuff purely for ones family album?

the fact that they're printed really big and the fact that they're sold as 'art'.

 

[bjorke]

Sally Mann - what makes her images of close family more than snapshots ...?

If you know someone whose snapshots look like that, please let me know

 

[Kerik]

Carl, with my apologies, I want to throw in my 2 cents on Sturges to address Leon's question. Apparently the children are fine with Jock's work as they grow up because he has been photographing the same families for 25 or 30 years and is photographing the children of subjects he photographed when they were young. I know Jock well, although have lost contact since he moved to the northwest. I've met a couple of his models that most who are familiar with his work would recognize. When I met them they were 20-ish and were two of the most intelligent, articulate and self-assured young people I've known. They come from a culture where nudity is perfectly normal and a culture that thinks our conservative, prudish attitudes are plain silly.

As for Sally's family work, I think they are much more than snapshots because the images often tell a story, and sometimes that story may not be pleasant. And often they recall emotional moments from our own histories. It doesn't hurt that her kids are very photogenic and are able to communicate to the viewer through Sally's lens. I think Sally is a true and brilliant artist and her work will be remembered amongst the masters of our medium long after the plethora of square, moody landscapes that are so popular now blend into oblivion.

Interesting thread! Jock, Sally and Emmet Gowin are all near the top of my list of photographic heroes.

 

[sionnac]

Well - without looking into it deeper - I find Sturges' work extremely creepy - along the lines of david hamilton (remember that guy??) taste-wise.

Sturges reminds me of Hamilton too. Not that he isn't a good photographer; just not my style.

There is something about Mann's photographs - and she is one of my favorite artists - that transcends the "snapshot," and provokes thought - these are complicated scenarios, and yet the story is told with a clarity and great beauty (that a parent would of course see in their children). I think the only people who would find these offensive or pornographic are people uncomfortable with nudity or sexual predators.

The most disturbing images I think she's made, actually, are the exposed cadavers in 'What Remains." Those were beautifully made, but the subject matter made me queasy.

 

[c6h6o3]

The same can be said of Mann's. The kids pictured often helped make the prints, btw.

Her printing can be magnificent. I saw a 20x24 of "The Last Time Emmett Posed Nude" at the Corcoran quite a few years ago and I've never forgotten it. That print is the finest art there can be as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jim Chinn]

I have always liked Sally Mann. One of the first books of images I ever bought was a used curator's edition of Still Time. She was also the first photographer I discovered that was considered an artist who happened to use a camera, not strictly a photographer.

When I think of family albums and snapshots I think of gapped tooth kids eating birthday cake or standing next to mickey and goofey at disneyworld or showing how addorable the kids look in thier haloween costumes or Easter best.


In images such as those in Immediate Family she presents a more realistic view of her children and of growing up. Images that define them (and her) far better then the accepted snapshot aesthetic we expect. I think it also takes a certain amount of courage to present such images of your children. I also think she is mocking the idea of the family album so full of moments of temporary smiles and fabricated happiness. I am not saying that capturing happy moments on film is not important, but what defines and molds us is what happens between the sugar sweet snaps.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

There was an interesting piece in _Aperture_ not too long ago by Sally Mann's daughter, Jessie. She's been doing collaborative work with other photographers playing on her role as a photographic subject, adopting various personae.

 

[jstraw]

This thread hasn't been and isn't really about Sturges it is about Sally Mann - I'd didn't intend to go down this route and would prefer we didn't as I know there are very strong views re his work.

Getting back to Sally Mann - what makes her images of close family more than snapshots or stuff purely for ones family album?

Define "snapshot." By no reasonable definition of that word are the images Mann produces "snapshots." She makes thoughtful, deliberate and meticulous images with a high degree of craft. Snapshots...that's dropping off film at Walgreens...

 

[CarlRadford]

...

Soeone else used the term snapshots - what I am saying is what makes these transend that which one might consider as images for a family album. I paid good money for the Immediate Family book and am very pleased I did. And I agree her work is masterful - I hope that clears this little bit up!

Define "snapshot." By no reasonable definition of that word are the images Mann produces "snapshots." She makes thoughtful, deliberate and meticulous images with a high degree of craft. Snapshots...that's dropping off film at Walgreens...

 

[Leon]

Apparently the children are fine with Jock's work as they grow up because he has been photographing the same families for 25 or 30 years and is photographing the children of subjects he photographed when they were young.

It's good to hear that - and perhaps that makes the pictures all the more valuable (in the artistic rather than financial sense). I guess my attitude come from my professional life - I'm sure Carl would agree that it tends to push us towards the more suspicious end of the scale - it's easy to have doubts when you are confronted with actual incidents of abuse each day ...

acceptance of thought-provoking images is such a personal thing and based on ones whole life-experience and value base.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

There was an interesting piece in _Aperture_ not too long ago by Sally Mann's daughter, Jessie. She's been doing collaborative work with other photographers playing on her role as a photographic subject, adopting various personae.

I also saw a similar interview in Shots Magazine lately.

 

[Sparky]

The most disturbing images I think she's made, actually, are the exposed cadavers in 'What Remains." Those were beautifully made, but the subject matter made me queasy.

Those pieces I love. I think she does some really amazing stuff. I'm just not so into the family portraits (they DO look just like standard family portraits to me).

 

[Denis P.]

(they DO look just like standard family portraits to me).

If you can make family portraits like those, my hat off to you, sir....

Denis

 

[Lee Shively]

I think Mann's (and Gowin's) work have contributed to the view that these can now be accepted as family portraits.

 

[Kerik]

(they DO look just like standard family portraits to me).

Can you post some of your family portraits that somehow compare to what Sally Mann has done? Or point us to some other "standard" family portraits that can hold a candle to hers??

 

[Sparky]

Depends where you're coming from Mr. Kerik. Nearly every family photo I've ever seen. They appear the same to me. I am not talking about shallow formal characteristics. I am talking about the psychological space of the image. i.e. - compare her portraits of her daughter(s) to Arbus' "Puerto Rican woman" to get a reference of what I mean.

 

[Mark H]

I went to a lecture by Jock Sturges a few years ago and was struck by the tremendous respect he displayed towards them when talking about his models. Listening to him, I was better able to see them as genuine people, not simply naked girls. (Though I always felt he has an ablility to capture "personality" in his photos.) As was mentioned earlier, he has photographed many of them for many years and has become close to some of their families.

I have found J. Sturges' photographs to be stunningly beautiful. David Hamilton's, to me, are creepy. Perhaps if I had heard him give a lecture, I could have learned to appreciate his photographs...

 

[Mark H]

I apologize for digressing from Sally Mann...

 

[patrickjames]

I have more respect for Mann's work than I do for Sturges. Don't get me wrong, I think Sturges produces beautiful photographs of beautiful people photographed beautifully, they are just not my cup of tea. Mann's "family snapshots" certainly have something powerful about them. It seems to me that her later work with wet collodion is more about the process than the images, and in that respect does not strike me as being as emotive.

Just an opinion.

Patrick

 

[Sparky]

Whatever the heck happened to being allowed not to like something anymore? It's not permitted? Sorry - I didn't get the handout. Neither Sally Mann's kid photos - nor Mr. Sturges' stuff really do anything for me. The common thread is that they both seem far too 'personal' for me to enter into a dialogue with. Both, of course, in different ways.