Discuss a Joel-Peter Witkin Photograph.

[Sparky]

I think it's only the most beautiful, useful and fascinating images in art that are deeply troubling... and I think it's very important for people to be confronted by the 'difficult'... morally, politically or otherwise.

To me, images like those of Ansel Adams that just affirm values are ultimately meaningless and valueless. Real growth is impossible without the asking of difficult questions.

 

[SuzanneR]

I think it's only the most beautiful, useful and fascinating images in art that are deeply troubling... and I think it's very important for people to be confronted by the 'difficult'... morally, politically or otherwise.

To me, images like those of Ansel Adams that just affirm values are ultimately meaningless and valueless. Real growth is impossible without the asking of difficult questions.

I appreciate being confronted by difficult or thought provoking images, but I often find that art or photography that is too much about the artist, ultimately unsatisfying. Witkin's art is shocking, yes... but, perhaps, only about HIS own fear of death. There's more to art than self expression, and I'd rather be confronted by an artist's work when they express ideas that go beyond the boudaries of their own ego.

Deja vu... didn't we have this argument??

 

[mark]

Suzanne you said it better than I ever could have.

 

[catem]

Or me - even though I was trying

 

[Donald Miller]

I appreciate being confronted by difficult or thought provoking images, but I often find that art or photography that is too much about the artist, ultimately unsatisfying. Witkin's art is shocking, yes... but, perhaps, only about HIS own fear of death. There's more to art than self expression, and I'd rather be confronted by an artist's work when they express ideas that go beyond the boudaries of their own ego.

Deja vu... didn't we have this argument??

But when their work disturbs us, whose ego is involved at that juncture?

 

[Donald Miller]

I think it's only the most beautiful, useful and fascinating images in art that are deeply troubling... and I think it's very important for people to be confronted by the 'difficult'... morally, politically or otherwise.

To me, images like those of Ansel Adams that just affirm values are ultimately meaningless and valueless. Real growth is impossible without the asking of difficult questions.

I would agree with that.

 

[SuzanneR]

But when their work disturbs us, whose ego is involved at that juncture?

I don't know.

I find Witkin's work is about shocking me, and not much more. My ego problem or his?

A couple of photographer's whose work I find disturbing, but more satisfying are Frederick Sommer and Ralph Eugene Meatyard. Sommer's work often addresses the uncomfortable issue of death, but somehow, in a more compelling way that draws me back to the work.

Maybe we should start a thread on his severed foot, or perhaps one of the chicken heads?

 

[SuzanneR]

Or me - even though I was trying

Thank you, Mark. And Cate... I think you were doing very well!!

I've had a glass of wine, and I'm relieved that what I wrote appears to be somewhat lucid!

 

[SuzanneR]

Of course... wouldn't these conversations be so much easier over a glass of wine or beer?????

 

[removed account4]

jpw is a bit too theatrical for me --- the whole corpse-mutilation axes &C and acting out greek/roman /biblical myths is interesting, but it is like using a sledgehammer for an upholstery tack ...

 

[Christopher Colley]

great stuff folks.. some very interesting ideas to consider here.

Donald brings up some interesting questions/thoughts !

I think this little discourse will bring a slightly broader outlook on the way I look at future photographs.. New perspectives!

 

[Sparky]

I appreciate being confronted by difficult or thought provoking images, but I often find that art or photography that is too much about the artist, ultimately unsatisfying. Witkin's art is shocking, yes... but, perhaps, only about HIS own fear of death. There's more to art than self expression, and I'd rather be confronted by an artist's work when they express ideas that go beyond the boudaries of their own ego.

Deja vu... didn't we have this argument??

Well - to be fair - I think you could say that about any artist, or individual. It sounds like a bit of an escape hatch to me. I'm not sure it's a fair assessment. (sorry - I just went back and noticed donald addressed this issue already).

To 'have an argument' rather than to 'make an argument' suggests that there is some sort of ego battle going on. Is that how you perceive it?

 

[Sparky]

I don't know.

I find Witkin's work is about shocking me, and not much more. My ego problem or his?

A couple of photographer's whose work I find disturbing, but more satisfying are Frederick Sommer and Ralph Eugene Meatyard. Sommer's work often addresses the uncomfortable issue of death, but somehow, in a more compelling way that draws me back to the work.

Maybe we should start a thread on his severed foot, or perhaps one of the chicken heads?

I also think that Witkin pushes the thing in your face quite alot more than Sommer or Meatyard. I think that's what I like about it. He provokes and takes an active role.

 

[David H. Bebbington]

I also think that Witkin pushes the thing in your face quite alot more than Sommer or Meatyard. I think that's what I like about it. He provokes and takes an active role.

Call me hopelessly naive, but I feel there's an essential difference here between the modern and post-modern age. Given the rigid conformity of the pre-World War I world, there were convincing reasons for believing that the status quo need a severe shakeup. In the post-modern age (post World War II), where almost all barriers have been broken down, all beliefs have been rejected rejected and as a result the vast majority of people feel directionless and confused, I feel there is an overriding need for art which is inspirational and uplifting, and that the enemies of art are desensitization and blasé indifference. In an age of no standards, the only way to shock is to be gross beyond belief and for its own sake, and I simply have no interest in anyone who does this.

 

[Christopher Colley]

....I feel there is an overriding need for art which is inspirational and uplifting....

But the world of art would be so blasé if everything was uplifting and inspirational.. I personally dont really care for uplifting and inspirational art. Shocking, disgusting, gross or not.. there is a place for this type of work, isnt there?

What is the yang (daylight) without yin (night time)?

 

[Jose A Martinez]

I get caught, I open this thread because of the title. I went all of it in order to find some explanation about the "death" subject, that suppose to be one of the JPW interest, I guess.
Thanks all that post, you gave me some thoughts. Some of you know that I've been working on it. I would like to know your opinion in this image against the JPW one:

 

[Wayne]

Whats this about Jorge being banned? Since when, and why? I'm still here and I find JPW "work" that I've seen to be that of a criminal. He is a sick bastard and so is anyone who finds value in the so-called "work" of someone who does what he pleases with corpses that have no say (and neither do their families), IMO. YMMV of course. But Sparky knows that and thats why he posted this pathetic troll. He apparently finds humor and entertainment in knowing that some dont share his cultivated, sophisticated tastes. I hope I didnt disappoint.


Wayne

 

[Sparky]

Whats this about Jorge being banned? Since when, and why? I'm still here and I find JPW "work" that I've seen to be that of a criminal. He is a sick bastard and so is anyone who finds value in the so-called "work" of someone who does what he pleases with corpses that have no say (and neither do their families), IMO. YMMV of course. But Sparky knows that and thats why he posted this pathetic troll. He apparently finds humor and entertainment in knowing that some dont share his cultivated, sophisticated tastes. I hope I didnt disappoint.


Wayne

hey, wayne... chill. I was just having fun. Yes, it was a bit of a troll - but I didn't expect it to go beyond one response. I think there are more Witkin lovers on board here! But I will say this - please learn to be inclusive, rather than exclusive in your beliefs, regardless what your fundamentalist preacher tells you. Exclusion is a mark of ignorance and fear. It seems if I can make room for the moral majority in my world, they should be able to make room for me, wouldn't you think? I'm sure you're a fine fellow - and like georgie bush, a heck of a guy to sit down and watch a football game with... so I'll bite my tongue here and not say any more.

kisses.

 

[Christopher Colley]

APUG: home of the sick bastards

 

[Wayne]

Your mentioning my name and those of GB and the MM in the same paragragh show how utterly full of shit you are-or are you just trolling again? I wouldnt want facts to intrude on your stereotypes, pre-conceived notions and jumped-to conclusions about those who disagree with you. Have a nice ignorant life.

 

[Sparky]

Your mentioning my name and those of GB and the MM in the same paragragh show how utterly full of shit you are-or are you just trolling again? I wouldnt want facts to intrude on your stereotypes, pre-conceived notions and jumped-to conclusions about those who disagree with you. Have a nice ignorant life.

I actually have no problems whatsoever with those who disagree with me. You can think I'm as full of shit as you want. That's totally your perogative. But you're absolutely right about me stereotyping you. I DID just assume. So, if I'm wrong - sorry for that. These things DO seem, in my experience to go together though. But I do take great exception to those who try to censor others' voices (JPW in this case) without knowing anything about them. I won't tolerate it.

 

[MattKing]

I wish I hadn't clicked on the thumbnail for the photograph.

I have read about Witkin's photographs, but I have avoided looking at them.

Somehow, the photgraph I just looked at doesn't seem to be revealing, but rather exploitave instead.

The overwhelming impression I have, is one of disrespect to the human being that was a person before they became the corpse pictured there.

Maybe the intention is to cause us to question our preconceptions, but all I can think of is the one and only experience I have had when I was in the presence of someone who died. That person was my aged grandmother, who was almost 100 when she died. I happened to be the one there, alone with her when she passed away, after her long, very interesting and happy and fulfilling life.

I and the others who stood vigil with her before her death did so out of love and respect. Those who dealt with her body (the care home staff) after her passing also did so with care and respect and probably love as well.

I cannot see how Witkin's photograph extended similar respect to the person whose corpse he photographed, and I think that is wrong. Even if taking the photograph isn't wrong, IMHO distributing it is.

To reveal sadness and pain and suffering in the living has both artistic and societal benefit. I cannot see any artistic and societal benefit arising from displaying portions of corpses.

Jorge, whether you are banned or not, I am definitely in agreement with you on this one.

Matt

 

[David H. Bebbington]

But the world of art would be so blasé if everything was uplifting and inspirational.. I personally dont really care for uplifting and inspirational art. Shocking, disgusting, gross or not.. there is a place for this type of work, isnt there?

What is the yang (daylight) without yin (night time)?

There's a fundamental question of personal philosophy here. In a nutshell (and based on first-hand experience), mine is that the human race is demonstrably capable of being unspeakably vile, selfish, superficial, materialistic, arrogant and cruel. Many people spend their whole lives in a headlong flight from this realization, I have had no choice but to confront it. If life were ONLY like this, there would be no point in living. Happily, there are people who search for positivity and truth, these are mainly but not exclusively artists and intellectuals, and when artists in particular succeed in their quest, the results are so sublime and transcendental that they make everything else bearable. This has no relation to bland chocolate-box art, which only seeks to disguise everything in a thick coating of sugar.

There are people in this world (and I am not referring specifically to individual members of APUG here) who lead sheltered overprivileged lives, feel guilty in some way about this, and therefore feel the need to wallow in some sort of artificially-created squalor and pain. Believe me, squalor and pain are distinctly overrated - if you've experienced them in real life, you have no need to expend time and money on synthetic recreations!

 

[Sparky]

David, that was a bit nebulous - though I sense that you felt uncomfortable writing it, so I won't press you. But it makes me wonder - what would you say about those who see a POSITIVE message in what Witkin has to say, as opposed to those who don't? In general, I mean? To think these images represent, say sadness in pain, is largely an extremely subjective thing, wouldn't you think?

Doesn't it really depend on how you interpret the message before you can evaluate it?

For me they are about a merging between the transcendence of death and art history and things that are passed. Photography is the PERFECT place for this to happen (see: On Photography for further comments on this). It could be argued that ALL photography is about mourning. If anything, it serves as a reminder to the living.

Millions of mexicans celebrating the 'Day of the Dead' can't be wrong, can they?

 

[David H. Bebbington]

David, that was a bit nebulous - but it makes me wonder - what would you say about those who see a POSITIVE message in what Witkin has to say, as opposed to one those who might NOT see it that way?

Sparky, if what I wrote was "a bit nebulous," let me try to amplify it briefly by saying that one of my greatest inspirations has been music. In the figure of Duke Ellington, for example, I see someone who experienced first hand all the racism which the American music business and society in general of the 1st half of the 20th century could throw at him, who had to deal with hoodlums and racketeers on a daily basis, but who transcended all of this so magnificently that he and his band transported audiences for 50 years, while he wrote dozens of standard tunes, sometimes under the most difficult conditions, and who, while in no way being a saint, was a true inspiration to virtually everyone who net him or heard his music. I have a mental pantheon of many other artists about whom I feel the same way.

What would I say to the people who see a POSITIVE message in what Witkin has to say? I respect their viewpoint, in fact I'd like to hear it explained in detail. I may not have been paying attention, but I don't feel among all the posts here that I've read any real description of a positive message, only some vague idea that shocks are good for the system!

Regards,

David