Digital explosion - spill over to traditional?

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B&Wpositive

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A lot of spill over is in the younger generation too. I've noticed, in the 5 years I've been a keen film shooter, more and more people around my age using classic 35mm cameras.

I started on film right before digital started going mainstream and am therefore part of the very last generation of photographers who started before digital took over most of the industry. I have been using film since at least 1994, and got serious in 1997, when film was the only real option unless you were a press professional with one of those Nc2000e cameras. I also got early exposure to digital in late 1997 and 1998 with the Kodak DCS-120 and Adobe Photoshop 4.0. So, although I did use both early on, I am technically not one of the spillover film photographers. You and I are part of the same generation though. In fact, I am a year or two younger than you.

I ran a college photography club from 2007 to 2008. Digital cameras dominated the club. From the people who attended our first couple of meetings, there were a lot (~ 20 students) with digital SLRs, including a few who owned high-end models including the EOS-1Ds Mark II, EOS-5D, Nikon D3, and Nikon D700. For the first time in my life, I was not the one with the most advanced or latest photographic equipment. But by far the bulk of those who came to the first couple of meetings used digital point-and-shoot cameras and were new to photography. Some of them later upgraded to digital SLRs; perhaps some will become spillovers to film. Finally, there were a handful of members with film SLRs, and a few who liked alternative cameras, such as Holga or Polaroid.

I believe my school's photography department has phased out or is in the process of phasing out color film and the color darkroom from its photography courses, in favor of digital and inkjet printing. There are many reasons that some schools have chosen to phase out the color darkroom, and sometimes the age and reliability of the processing equipment is a factor. I remember days when the RA-4 processor just wouldn't work right; it was so old that it was really on its way out, and needed a lot of help sometimes to get it stable. I was told that my school planned to keep the black and white darkroom going, as it is far simpler. I find it amazing that some schools find a way to keep the color darkroom going. In the end though, whether film or digital, it is still photography, and this is what really matters. I was in one of the last classes if not the last class to make use of the color darkroom at my school. A lot of the instructors are forawrd-thinking people who embrace the newer, arguably better methods.

Me? I use both, but I'm going to be the last person on the planet to go fully digital. There will always be room for both on my street.

Oh, if anyone is looking for some RA-4 paper, give me a holler. :wink:
 
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Prest_400

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Come on up! The view is great!

Sure, will do ASAP. Budget is low for it at the moment... Buf it all goes well I should have some MF camera (probably TLR) before 3 years pass.
Will see if the university I'll be on will have photo programs. I do plan to get a field camera after ending uni.
 

Chris Nielsen

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I'm another that began in film, went digital to get my snaps faster, but then took one look at Velvia on a light table and immediately put all my Canon digital gear up on trademe (local version of ebay). Currently finishing off building a Nikon 35mm kit and a portable darkroom, and it's wonderful fun!!!! I have a Rolleicord for when I can take my time, unfortunately I can't enlarge MF yet, but I'm working on it. Still looks gorgeous scanned in, all the same.. Not sure if the attached image falls in the 'gorgeous' category but I like it all the same :smile:
 

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ChrisC

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Another pleasing (to me anyway) trend to this spillover (or backwash if you will in this case) is my father after seeing my recent trip photos. He ended up going on a trip with my Mother to melbourne back in January and decided to dust off his Minolta Hi-Matic 7s he bought back new decades ago. He's a digital shooter now, and only a snapshotter with a point and shoot Canon, but remembered the days of film and wanted to try it out again. He ended up burning through two rolls of HP5 which I showed him how to develop (he only developed film when he was in his 20's taken with brownies) and now wants me to show him how to print (which I guess I'll need to practice as I'm still very amateur at it!).

Also my girlfriend who took photography in high school but all but hasn't even touched a camera since. She's lately been hinting at wanting to get back into it too (finally someone to go shooting with) and is only interested in film.


...After all it's getting harder and harder to find music cassettes nowadays. Let alone brand new eight tracks. Or vinyls.

Vinyl's come back in a huge, huge way in the last 5 years. The amount of 'popular' (yeah, I hate the term too) music getting released in vinyl alongside CD's is ever increasing. I think as music becomes more and more digital based by means of downloading and people using mp3 players for their music on the move, vinyl's appealing to people not only for it's more enjoyable sound, but as a physical object to replace CD's. One things some artists are doing is offering a free digital download when you buy their albums on vinyl. DJ's also prefer vinyl in big numbers, and these days anything from any genre is fair game for mixing (with varied results), which I think is also driving this demand.


Not sure if the attached image falls in the 'gorgeous' category but I like it all the same :smile:

I see you too find something special about old, wooden smalltown NZ churches? It's a project I've been meaning to start for a while now. Especially the rural ones that are just sitting out in paddocks. I just love them.
 

ghost

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Vinyl's come back in a huge, huge way in the last 5 years. The amount of 'popular' (yeah, I hate the term too) music getting released in vinyl alongside CD's is ever increasing. I think as music becomes more and more digital based by means of downloading and people using mp3 players for their music on the move, vinyl's appealing to people not only for it's more enjoyable sound, but as a physical object to replace CD's. One things some artists are doing is offering a free digital download when you buy their albums on vinyl. DJ's also prefer vinyl in big numbers, and these days anything from any genre is fair game for mixing (with varied results), which I think is also driving this demand.
.

Yep- I live next to a huge art school here in Baltimore (MICA)...among the art school kids, vinyl is hip- MP3's are not- two huge record stores full of vinyl here in town

Same thing with film- last time I had my 4x5 gear out down there I was literally surrounded by 12-15 pierced and tatooed young hipsters- all gushing about film - one youngster proudly showed me his Pentax K1000...

Quote of the day (from a tatoo covered young man)

me- "I'm surprised you kids aren't interested in digital photography"

him- "digital, "that's for p*ssies!"

-made me smile-:smile:

now remember though- these are art school kids-10 years from now, only a very small pecentage will still be doing art (just the facts)- but out of that group, I bet there will be at least one or two who remain commited to silver based artwork moving forward- this application of our beloved materials is in NO danger of going away- and there will still be a few manufactueres who find a way to make the niche profitable...

that said- back to the topic- the idea that any real significant number of snapshot snappers are going to somehow fully re-commit to "real" photography is a pipe dream- digital is just too ideal for the application-

BUT- there is a feeling, even among young (non artsy) people of respect and awe for "real photography"-

One thing I noticed once when I was in a gallery with some young people ((this is my college age sister and her friend when viewing (beautifully done, BTW) inkjet prints in a gallery in Cape May)))...

(and don't flame me, I know this is wrong- but people do feel this way)...

... they loved the prints we were viewing- but when they found out that "glicee" means an inkjet, I think (in their mind) they were like- O I have one on my desk...

and when told that "RAW capture" means (again, in their mind) a camera like the one on their phone...the response was...
"why pay for that, I can do it myself" (again I know this is silly- I'm just restating what I was told)

Now we all know that these kids certainly can't duplicate that guys stuff with their phone and an Epson, I'm just talking about a feeling that "real" (traditional" photography is somehow "special" or "serious" and more worthy of respect...and digital is just something that "anyone can do"...

Is this right or accurate, or fair? (esp. to the guy who spent hundreds of hour getting his curves/inks right, etc).. of course not- however, to be totally honest- as someone who does traditional processes, It's a feeling that I DO tend to capitalize on and feed into... to increase the perceived value of my own work- just being honest...


Anyway- I just wish folks could see that, the materials availability aside, the fact that the family snapshot camera is now digital, is not a 100% bad thing for the "fine art" worker in trad processes.
 

DRabbit

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I'm one of those spill-overs. Didn't get into photography seriously until digital was becoming widely available and it's only now that I really want to explore film. A recent thrift-shop purchase of an old polaroid is part of what got the ball rolling... and I've now got it narrowed down to two 35mm rangefinders I'm going to choose from (and some B&W film on the way). Already found a local lab (luckily, I know some local photographers who could recommend a good ones) and even just ordered a negative scanner.

In another forum I belong to there was recently a heated discussion about why some of us would choose a particular camera (in this case, manual-focus rangefinders) and another member was arguing adamantly that they should be autofocus like any "modern camera these days". What is interesting is that at some point in the discussion we started talking about sound (I'm also into music) and it's an appropriate analogy.

We had analog. Then the world went digital. No one can argue the benefits of recording with ProTools on a computer. Computers get cheaper and software like GarageBand makes everyone think they can do, and getting onto iTunes seems easy. What happens? More musicians and labels start to spend money on mastering to "warm up" those digital recordings. $10,000 compressors and tube-based processors and EQs are highly desirable to make those digital recordings sound more analog. How ironic. "Vintage" equipment makes a resurgence. I just recently sold an old synth from the 80's that went on ebay for 4-5 times as much as it did brand new back in "the day".

Funny enough, my son's girlfriend just took a college course in Photography. It was all film. They were NOT allowed to shoot digital. She has loved it and is now interested in continuing with it.

I recently worked on fake book cover (for a contest)... it was about a topic I feel connected to these days... I thought it was appropriate to share here in this thread based on the topic (hope you agree)... it WAS shot digitally (funny enough), but it isn't a photoshop composite... the photos in the photo I actually shot too (on a real polaroid, LOL). If it's not okay to post, I understand if it's removed... I just think it speaks to why film and other analog mediums are making a resurgence...

digalog.jpg
 

Chris Nielsen

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I see you too find something special about old, wooden smalltown NZ churches? It's a project I've been meaning to start for a while now. Especially the rural ones that are just sitting out in paddocks. I just love them.

Definitely!!! When I do my upcoming road trip I'll be looking out for them, for sure!
 
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Matt5791

Matt5791

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Thanks for all the replies everyone. I didn't realise this thread would attract such a response.

Firstly, a lot of the responses to this thread suggest that my "spill-over" theory has some truth.

Just to reiterate - this theory is that there are so many digital enthusiasts that even a very small "spill over" would be very significant. I need to make clear - I would not expect anything more than a small percentage of those digital enthusiasts to get into traditional photography, but because there are so many enthusiasts, a small take up would be a lot of people.

Matt
 
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Like your '55 Willys, these carbureted cars will last far longer than today's computerized fuel injection junk. The huge expense of designing computerized cars is what made the Big Three unprofitable. Manufacturers of Digital Cameras aren't making much money either! That's why they charge a fortune for their Ink! They suck you in with the Camera, and get you on the Ink. :mad:

Too true!!

I have had to, in the past, tell interested people how my 1952 Rolleicord (or my 60s motorized Nikon Fs) won't EVER end up in a landfill, like the throwaway digitals they had. And they are all, or will ultimately be, throwaways. If a fauxtographer has a 6-megapixel SLR, they won't be able to trade it it anymore. If a dealer takes it, it will, at best, go for parts, or, at worst, into Your Friendly Neighbourhood Landfill Site.

TerryM, your comment about the ink is reminiscent of the old photofinishers mantra, "Give away the camera, make a buck on the film, and clean up on the finishing." The only profit center they would seem to have would be on ink jet consumables, which is why a sheet of 8-1/2 x 11 paper, and ink, cost on the close order of three dollars. For a comparison, check the current prices of colour paper on Freestyle's site.
 

Steve Smith

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More musicians and labels start to spend money on mastering to "warm up" those digital recordings. $10,000 compressors and tube-based processors and EQs are highly desirable to make those digital recordings sound more analog. How ironic.

It is indeed. I make valve (tube) based microphone preamplifiers for recording (link below) and a couple of years ago I made a 100% valve, nine channel mixing desk for a friend to master his eight channel hard drive recorder tracks to.


Steve.
 

Prest_400

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TerryM said:
Like your '55 Willys, these carbureted cars will last far longer than today's computerized fuel injection junk. The huge expense of designing computerized cars is what made the Big Three unprofitable. Manufacturers of Digital Cameras aren't making much money either! That's why they charge a fortune for their Ink! They suck you in with the Camera, and get you on the Ink.
Yep, that's true. Our family car from 1990s to 2002 was a diesel peugeot 205; My dad loved that car, in 10 years he only had a problem with a filter; by then, the car has 200.000km which is quite much. He sold it and it is still running fine! He said once: "How bad the car is obsolete, but it was built like a tank". He also says that the peugeot allowed for more DIY maintenance, because it was more simple, mechanical or whatever ellse... which the actual one doesn't.
The car we have now, an Opel (Vauxhall, If I spell correctly) has made 80.000 km in 9 years; It passed about 10 repairs in a year... Though some were needed because is maintenance. Or the car is getting crappy with age or the official mechanics are stealing our money.

I have had to, in the past, tell interested people how my 1952 Rolleicord (or my 60s motorized Nikon Fs) won't EVER end up in a landfill, like the throwaway digitals they had. And they are all, or will ultimately be, throwaways. If a fauxtographer has a 6-megapixel SLR, they won't be able to trade it it anymore. If a dealer takes it, it will, at best, go for parts, or, at worst, into Your Friendly Neighbourhood Landfill Site.

TerryM, your comment about the ink is reminiscent of the old photofinishers mantra, "Give away the camera, make a buck on the film, and clean up on the finishing." The only profit center they would seem to have would be on ink jet consumables, which is why a sheet of 8-1/2 x 11 paper, and ink, cost on the close order of three dollars. For a comparison, check the current prices of colour paper on Freestyle's site.
Ah yes, that woman that said that film polluted... but we are throwing lots of digis and electronic crap over the Earth.
I just hate to buy a thing that I do have to throw away; when I was in quest of my first serious camera I wanted a DSLR, but I seen that models get obsolete within a year, "crap" I thought, I wanted something durable, and spending 600€ on a thing that gets obsolete today is like a no-no; So I took a refurbished Mechanical SLR; It ran 30 years, so why not 30 years more?. Now I know that I won't need to throw my "new" cameras in future. Before, if something broke, most of the time it was repaired.

Sometimes I wonder if people don't miss their "camera of all the life", because you only needed one (or two with bad luck if you broke yours) for a lifetime!
 

mhcfires

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I must confess that I too have a digital camera, a Nikon D80. I bought it to keep up with my girlfriend after she bought a D200 a few years ago. I also have a Nikon N80 so that I can use the newer Nikon lenses with a film camera. My first love however, is the old film camera. I have a Topcon RE Super which I bought when in Japan in 1968 while in the Navy, A few Mamiya C3 TLR's, and a few 3x4 Graflex SLR's which are pushing 100 years old. I also have a Toyo 45G view camera which is a joy to use. My GF wants that instant gratification that can be had from a digital camera. She has a very good eye, but takes a load of pictures to get the one she wants, tossing probably 90% of her shots. I took only the Graflex on a recent weekend trip to the mountains, I had only 12 sheets of film in the bag-mag. I was quite happy with the results, even though I had only 12 photos, I think I was more satisfied than she. (All B&W since I can't get color film in 3 1/4 x 4 1/4. I want to put in a darkroom, not sure where in this house I can put it, have to be content with a changing bag to load film, and with a scanner for scanning and printing.. When I completely retire I can do more, but for now this will have to do. I am one of two renegades in our photo club, everyone else uses digital cameras. :smile:
 

Aurum

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Unfortunately, the only medium format camera I have at the moment is a Holga. I love the camera but I would prefer to have a proper medium format slr for use with slides.

Seriously, Ebay is your friend for this one. Ignore Holgas as they are a niche market where the cost is not proportional to what you actually get.

Decent quality kit from the 30's, 40's and 50's goes for beer money, provided it isn't something like a hassy. Go for a TLR rather than an SLR, just as user friendly, just cheaper

The 120 film kit I use is varied, but all good stuff.
6x6: Lubitel 166B, bought new for £20 a long time ago, plus a couple of "compact" 1950's point and shoots
6x9, Ziess Ikon, Kodak Brownie Autographic 1A.

None of these cost more than £30!

First slide film I fired through the Lubitel was *WOW* If you thought 35mm was good, be prepared to be astounded by a 6x6 slide
 

John W

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The only profit center they would seem to have would be on ink jet consumables, which is why a sheet of 8-1/2 x 11 paper, and ink, cost on the close order of three dollars. For a comparison, check the current prices of colour paper on Freestyle's site.

This figure is nonsense. Detailed discussion is very off topic for APUG, but using figures available online for an Epson 3800's average ink usage, combined with current prices for ink and paper at B&H Photo, gives a range of about 0.74 to 1.54 USD consumables cost per printed sheet. Folks who'd like a look at my back-o-the-napkin details: please PM me directly.

Price for Fuji Crystal Archive in the 100 sheet box at Freestyle is about 0.43 per sheet. I haven't done wet darkroom color printing yet, but I sure as heck don't get a final B&W fine print on the first shot.
 

BetterSense

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It's true that you have to go through a bit of paper to get a final print in analog land. But I was somewhat comforted over the high price of B&W enlarging paper when I accompanied my friend to Staples and found that basic inkjet paper runs at least $.25 a sheet and up. That makes the $.35/sheet I pay for enlarging paper a bit easier to handle.
 

Aurum

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35 cents for a contact sheet, plus another 35 cents for a sheet cut into as many strips as you want to get the exposure bang on.

Actually faster IMHO than doing what I do with 6x9 and scanning it in.

Of course once I get an enlarger that can handle 6x9cm or 4x5" the scanner will be redundant.

The operative word being at the moment is when, as I'm having trouble locating one that I can afford thats actually in one piece.




Mumble Grumble Mumble mutter......
 

Van Camper

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I noticed a lot of comments related to the cost of film. Well, that is a legitimate point for amateurs, who really do not care to dabble into fine art and making huge prints. I agree, for the average family guy, a digital camera for $700-2000 is all they needs, he rarely would do a 16x20inch print, it does all his family pictures, and costs him nothing after the initial investment to have fun with it. With this mentality you would be crazy to shoot anything but digital today.

The next market is the commercial sector (wedding, magazine, etc). High volume shooting (300 shots per day) would be costly in film/processing. The savings alone would be $30k per year, so a digital back is no big deal to buy. A dslr or digital back to them is a lifesaver, it would drive these guys crazy staying up all night scanning. Before digital many argue it was easier, you photograph the wedding, and let the labs do the rest.

The next market is high- end photography, either high end digital backs or high end film (large format). If your doing commercial (again high volume), a high end digital back is "good enough" for prints to about 24inches at 300ppi output. After that your into interpolating, while with large format film you can print to 50 inches, with 8x10 film to 10 feet. This market is dominated by fine art and pro landscape shooters. It is low volume shooting (you may spend days travelling and only shoot a few sheets). Quality is the number one objective (not cost). You may spend days building a set to photograph, or whatever to create your art. Certainly $30 in film/processing is no big deal (it costs more for my friend who paints in traditional oils to do a canvas painting....after paint, worn out brushes, canvas, stretcher it runs him about $100 easily). This is about low volume very high end art. This is where art separates from the commercial and amateur uses. We have millions of feet of walls to cover in homes, offices, and commercial areas. Others stick to galleries and common sizes are prints of 50inches or larger (see Edward Burtynski). A digital back won't do, they want maximum quality. A barn on 35mm film will be maybe .25 inches in size, on 4x5 film maybe 2 inches in size, and maybe 4 inches in size on 8x10 film....giving you room to record more data (in other words you can only lay down so much information on a given area of film or sensor, after which you need a bigger sensor or film). If you become a fine art photographer, you will understand, film is high-end photography (while before it was used for all market segments to satisfy all needs). We got guys who don't think twice plunking $784 for 25 sheets of 20x24 b/w film ( http://www.bigcameraworkshops.com/default2.asp ) . Cost is not the issue, quality is the only thing that matters in this market, and how big you can print. Your concern is to give the finest quality print possible to customers paying $3500 for a single landscape print..... See http://www.kenduncan.com/ or Peter Lik at Dead Link Removed who makes $35million in sales per year from his roughly 17 locations hanging prints up to 3 meters in size, by selling to the rich (he is building 2-3 locations at a time now). Here are a few youtube videos.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vi1kntO6yE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3icnywkMpM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moutL1dHaTY&feature=related


Film allows huge prints (without interpolating up), it is also archival. A commercial photographer doesn't care if he has a read error after 2 yrs...his hamburger add is already old, and wedding photographers know the only sales are the first time, after that everyone scans on a flatbed at home for reprints. When you sell limited edition prints ob 100 or more, it represents a huge profit loss if your file is lost. Film is safe, it is "fixed", always able to be scanned. No issues with operating systems or software aging, read errors, etc. Film is the only insurance these guys have (one on film, the other on DVD after scanning).

Check out Photokina 2008 (leading edge for photography). Everyone there will tell you film sales have stabilized (because they serve different markets with different different needs). ..... (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and also check out Dead Link Removed . It's not a question of is film dead, but rather which do you need for the job you have to do. You pick one or the other.

I also want to point out that so many of us talk about a p45 for high end digital , but it still does not match 4x5 film, and how many of us can afford one?. At least with film you pay as you go, while with a p45 or P65 back after paying $40k for the back, you still need lenses and a body that runs you up to $60k. You better be sure of your sales volume, are you a high volume shooter, if not you can get higher quality with 4x5 film and get a body, lenses, and camera for under $10k new (less then half that used). Remember, with digital you shoot like a machine gun coming home every day with 200-300 images, but with large format film you will come home with one or two (sometimes none) images, but they will be far better. If your into fine art, film is the only choice (unless your famous like Peter Lik). He has a p45 back, but his prime cameras that provide the very best quality in his 3 meter prints are from his Linhof Technorama and Fotoman 617 cameras. For most fine art and landscape shooters, you cannot afford to shoot anything else but film!

If you want to immerse yourself into high-end photography, make big prints, and affordably, film is the best choice and only choice for most of us (unless you got $60k to toss around). Myself I would rather put it toward a car, boat, cottage, mortgage, childrens education. So many will argue about digital, but rarely are referring to the high end stuff like a p65 back, and rarely do these same people own one. In fact I would say in this or other forums less then 10% are doing enough volume to justify $40-60k, the rest are doing there business with dslr or lower end medium format backs (none offer the quality of large format film). Of course a good scanner is the key, I turned to 612/617 and get incredible results with my Nikon 9000. Cheap and good (and new)compared to more expensive alternatives. I do not recommend a Epson unless your making prints up to 20inches.

I like digital for family images, but I like it more because it has introduced more people into "fine-art" photography then ever before. Everyone has a lightroom (in the old days few had darkrooms). Once the bug is there, they want more, the highest quality, then bigger prints. Their digital camera for $3000 is no longer enough, but they cannot afford a $40k back which only replaces film, yet still offers less quality. For these people there is only one choice (film). I see so many argue against me...the future they argue is digital (sure for some market sectors), but when asked if they own a p65 back ($40k) or the body/lenses... the answer is no, they shoot large format. Apparently talk is cheap, but if you want to be a doer, get some high end large format film. I see many teens getting into it, which I love to see. Film is a different media from digital, just as watercolor is to oil painting. Similar skills, same image, just done differently using different materials and equipment. You pick what suits your needs, and what you can afford! Also remember, film cameras don't die, you just load it up in 5 yrs with the latest and greatest film and you're never obsolete like with digital cameras. Film equipment from 50 years ago (4x5 Crown Graphics, etc) are very popular and produce amazing results with todays films.
 
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JBrunner

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Unfortunately this thread is straying off topic from the OP, and in danger of becoming yet another tired dead horse.The original premise is interesting and I agree.
 

Van Camper

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JBrunner, if your referring to my post straying off, how do you figure? I was explaining the trend taking place, more digital shooters eventually spilling over into high end film (obviosly not 35mm). What the original poster says is true, and I have seen it many times. Just look at how many young folks are taking up film at the largeformat photography forum under "How old are we".... http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=8129&page=41 . Some are 17 and already shooting 8x10 film.

Digital is the catalyst, creating for some of us a desire to pursue things more seriously in our photography, and I was explaining the reasons spill over from digital to eventually analog occurs.
 

JBrunner

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No Van Camper, not necessarily you. My post just happened to follow yours, it wasn't a reply.

Just a reminder to everyone that APUG is about film, not film vs. digital, and not hybrid. This thread walks the line in a couple of places, but by in large is OT and thoughtful and responsible. We don't allow many threads like this to exist, not to stifle discussion, but because they usually degenerate into pointless comparisons sooner or later, and the kind of debate that APUG doesn't sanction. I'm pulling my big snout back in now. Carry on.
 
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2F/2F

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We all know about the massive explosion in digital photography. It has meant that a huge number of people have come to photography for the first time and the number of photography enthusiasts has simply exploded in the past 8 years, because of digital.

Photography has now, in the UK anyway, become one of the most aspirational professions, and enthusiats are everywhere. Courses in all aspects of photography are available all over the country.

I have a theory that I believe is starting to play out. This is that with such enourmous numbers of very enthusiastic photograpers, there is inevitably some "spill over" occuring - people want to try "real photography" because they want to try something different or feel they have exhausted the challenges available to them through the digital medium. It appears We are starting to see a number of converts to traditional, or "bi-users" using both film and digital.

With so many digital enthusiats out there I believe spill over is inevitable, especially now that digital has been around for a number of years, and I don't think this is overly optimistic.

Further to this, there will be less innovations over the next few years in the digital arena as the industry struggles to secure the finance to develop new products, and sales drop as a result of not only the economic downturn, but also the fact that newer digital cameras offer less over exisiting ones (ie. the "pixel race" has come to an end).

I would be interested if anyone has any thoughts on this.

My thoughts on this are that it is not digital that is causing so many people to take up photography, and that it is simply this point in socioeconomic history. Stated plainly, a bunch of people are buying a bunch of crap they think they need, just because they can.

I believe that raw, rampant, and unchecked capitalism, and the demand for the two-dimensional imagery necessary to support it, is causing this. The fact that it is now digital does not mean that ANYONE can do it any more than ANYONE could do it if it was film. The trend has continued despite the current technology of the time, from Brownie to Argus to AE-1 to Powershot. People are taught that buying shit that makes pix equals validation, freedom, power, and righteousness. What is different is that fact that every generation sees more and more two-dimensional imagery in their life, and every generation's character and values is determined more and more by imagery. This imagery dictates so many aspects of human behavior. How to feel, how to act, what to value, etc. Imagery guides the manipulation - both external and internal - of people in our societies more and more every generation. The two-dimensional image holds a God-like status in Western society. Images are like drugs and propaganda all mixed into one. This is always increasing, hence demand for imagery increases. Two-dimensional imagery is the very thing that is used to manipulate people into spending their money certain ways, acting certain ways, and believing certain things. We are hooked on it like a drug, I tell you! We define ourselves with it, and let it lead us in our lives.

We are [hopefully] reaching the apogee of a period in which growth at any cost has been the goal, and people can start thinking about the content of their characters as defined by something other than what they do with their money. There may be some spill over from truly inquisitive photographers, however, if anything will help film, I believe it will be an "underground" backlash to digital spreading into more mainstream areas of society, as disposable digital stuff is just one of many symbols of what has gone wrong in our world.
 
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Van Camper

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"My thoughts on this are that it is not digital that is causing so many people to take up photography, and that it is simply this point in socioeconomic history. Stated plainly, a bunch of people are buying a bunch of crap they think they need, just because they can."

True, but as kids we were also were taught not to waste (eat all the food off your plate, etc). To buy a film camera in the old days was a necessity for every family to ensure photos exist of family activities (a need) such as birthdays, weddings, travel, and other happy times. You shot what was important, but didn't photograph cracks in walls, or shoot at a clear blue sky because it cost money to do so (and no one tosses money to the wind). Today, digital cameras are good for 150-300,000 exposures and now the attitude is "use it or lose it" considering how fast digital is obsolete, with new technology far better only 1-2 years later, creating resale prices for your used dslr cameras to drop through the floor. So why not shoot more? Shooting more is sort of addictive, and many get to realize the fun of being involved in a creative activity. Once you're hooked a strong need exists...the next stage is a better dslr as your abilities improve, and eventually the switch to high end film (large format) because it is the only affordable option (digital backs are too pricey), still provides the best quality, and huge prints if needed (Peter Lik regularly does 3 meter prints with his 617 Technorama). Today we see many amateurs with 24 and 44 inch printers, while few had darkrooms in the old days. Why? Today pro printers are far more affordable then the cost of a darkroom, enlarger (plus lenses), other accessories, consumes less space, and lets not forget the time savings using a digital darkroom. Few people had the time or desire to spend their weekend printing when they have a family and lawn to cut. In the time it use to take to mix chemicals, print, then cleanup....I can now have a print made using digital, while sitting down. Instead of a whole day in the darkroom, I now can get as good a print in 30 mins. It is WYSIWYG instantly, vs make an adjustment and hope it was not too little/too much once processed. Analog was too slow, digital is quick, allowing more people to get involved. That part I like, the more people, the more "spill-over" into film as their need for quality increases. Cost is always the key, money is always scarce, we must decide between the kids education, mortgage, business expenses, and money for family trips.
 
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JBrunner

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I think quality is a reason in some instances, but most film users choose to use film as for other reasons, be they process, aesthetic, or philosophy. Persons usually choose the qualities, not quality, as "quality" is a very subjective judgment, and no meaningful comparison exists except within boundaries that must be predefined and generally do not matter beyond a certain threshold of competence, materials and work flow. It is a numbers game, hence the migration. Become exposed to photography and a certain percentage may take up film for various reasons. To me the "quality" argument is pretty much a non issue, and I think most really good photographers are more interested in aesthetic, and leave the idea of quality, and gear in general to the gear head print sniffers, who generally aren't doing noteworthy work anyway.
 
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AgX

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"quality vs. qualities"

I'll have to think about that.
 
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