Diffuser or Condenser

I've always used a diffusion enlarger, particularly for colour as it is impossible to retouch with different colours to compensate the different layers of colour film. With B/W it was an absolute breeze exposing paper for printing with near flawless results...void of dust and scratches.
I then opted for Cold Cathode enlargers for B/W and the results were impeccable from an evenly diffused blue light source. A somewhat surreal finish...
Though, in my opinion, a Condenser enlarger with it's point light source would deliver a true result in B/W printing despite having to go to the trouble of careful handling of films in a dust free environment. I would have my negative ionizer working at full throttle!

cliveh said:

To help re-establish my street cred in the analogue silver printing world, can I ask a question that has probably been asked before on this forum, but perhaps not in this way. Given two negatives of an identical subject, but one exposed and developed to suit a diffuser enlarger and one exposed and developed to suit a condenser enlarger, which would you prefer to print on? For me it would probably be the condenser to give that snap to the print that only a condenser or point source can do.

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I would prefer the one made for the diffuserbecause they seem to be a bit tamer and easier for me to get detail into shadows and highlights but I don't mind spending a lot of time with dodge and burn.In any case;they will be different but base contrast will be the same for each enlarger

ic-racer said:

. Also, continuously variable filtration is not easy to implement [with condenser light source], thus usually not offered.

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I'll update my post from 2012. I have acquired a continuously variable filtration condenser head since that post. This is a solution I had not seen before. It is an additive head. Three colored lamps shine on the disk from behind.

Condenser for me. I've used both and I prefer the snap of a condenser print although I do acknowledge the convenience of diffusers.

Diffusion with the color head:

1. That is what I have.
2. I do not have the dust problems.
3. With a condenser, I have to keep opening up the condenser and rearranging the lenses every time I change the format. This is a great opportunity to get dust or chip/break a condenser lens.
4. I am willing to take the hit for the slight loss of contrast.

So what is a true condenser enlarger? Where should the lamp filament be projected?

mr rusty said:

And then there's the Vivitar V1 which I acquired knowing little about enlargers, but the more I read and use it the more I think this is a nice piece of kit. Dichroic colour head through a "light pipe", which insulates all heat, then condensers and glassless neg carrier. The little I've used it so far, dust hasn't been a problem.

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+1. I have several diffusion and condenser enlargers and the Vivitar VI is, without out a doubt, the winner IMHO. It is much better built/heavier than the next contender, the 23CII. Four by five or larger enlargers are not being considered in this comparison.

The only thing condensed on my property are a few cans of condensed canned milk my wife uses to make pumpkin pie. As far as my six enlargers go,
five have diffused colorheads, and one of the 8x10 units has a cold light. I just finished rewiring and testing my mini-8x10 color enlarger, a 600 lb Durst, tiny beside my other one. Never did understand the appeal of condensers, with one exception - crisp conspicuous grain in b&w 35mm.

But the thing about a condenser is that it is so Zen. Right here right now, 6 seconds, Bam, done.

Zen? In the Seven Samurais sense? Seems more like True Grit.

DREW WILEY said:

Zen? In the Seven Samurais sense? Seems more like True Grit.

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Or true grain?

DREW WILEY said:

Never did understand the appeal of condensers, with one exception - crisp conspicuous grain in b&w 35mm.

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cliveh said:

But the thing about a condenser is that it is so Zen. Right here right now, 6 seconds, Bam, done.

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The one thing about condensers is very Zen: One can get the glowing enlarger filament image to burn into the print.

Either the dichroic head on my DeVere 5108 or the VCCE head on the LPL. If someone really wants a Condenser head I have a 5x7 Durst in storage! PM me!

I have just upgraded to a Beseler 23CIII-XL with a VC head from a Lucky 90M-D which was a condenser enlarger with an opaque bulb.

I did a comparison, same negative in both enlargers with a 10 minutes difference between enlargments and developed in the same exact tray of developer. The whole experiment took about an hour.
Paper was Grade 2 from the same box.

1. The Condenser (semi diffused via the opaque bulb) enlarger had more contrast. It's a lot more evident when I hold the prints then just seeing the scan below. By the way the scan (which I know is a frowned upon word here - apologies) was done at the same time with the two sheets op 5x7 scanned in one go so no variations in tonality as it's understood by the sensor.

2. The Condenser enlarger printed the negative at f16 for 12 seconds and the VC head at f8 for 15 seconds. That's a little over 2 stops of difference.

Overall I liked the condenser but still having just gotten the Beseler, I let the Condenser one go. I have a tiny darkroom so only one enlarger can stay. I might shop around for a condenser head for the Beseler as I really like that enlarger minus the fact that focusing has no fine-tuning knob which makes it very hard to focus, specially with the head high up.

Questions (I just started printing 14 months ago):

- When using VC paper, I need to turn the filtration off for focusing and then back on for enlarging. This is a lever that does something mechanical (moves the filter discs below the light I assume) and this takes some force. It isn't hard but you definitely feel some resistance moving this switch and the head shakes a little. I assume the beseler is a sturdy enough machine not to lose focus. Is this okay to do or I better not touch the head once critical focus was set?

- When using the VC filtration, I can't see anything of an image projected through the red safety filter. I print large and my easel isn't perfect so I need to have the red safe image projected on the paper to adjust the placement of it on the easel. This again means I need to flip the switch to get the "white light" - use the red filter to adjust the paper - put the filtration back on again hence some shaking of the head. This relates to the first question but what I am wondering if there is a way to see a safe image projected on the paper with the filtration turned on?

- When enlarging to 20x24 paper from 135 film, i needed to print for 30 seconds @f4. Two things worry me here, f4 might not be as sharp as f8 and the 30 seconds time already seems long. I am perhaps just used to the condenser's quick printing times but if I wanted f8 at this size, I'd need to enlarge for 120 seconds and I worry this is dangerous for getting shakes in the head etc? I do stand still but still but anything can happen in the course of 2 minutes. I also enlarge wall projected sometimes where this 120 seconds would jump to be 4-5 minutes easily.


Thanks a lot,
Ben

p.s. Here is my enlarging example. Top is the Condenser. I choose a very high contrast image - ASA250 film shot at 1600.

Luis-F-S said:

Either the dichroic head on my DeVere 5108 or the VCCE head on the LPL. If someone really wants a Condenser head I have a 5x7 Durst in storage! PM me!

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Aihh I want a 5x7 durst (the laborator 138) but its to tall and I don't have room for it
Im not picky since most of my darkroom gear was given to me for free. I paid for the Omega D3 and the jobo CPE2 and that's about it. Over the years Ive been given 6 or 7 enlagers mostly 6x6 but also a couple of 6x7's and 24x36's, condenser and diffuser. Some I gave up because of format and some because the column was in the way when trying to do larger prints.

bence8810 said:

By the way the scan (which I know is a frowned upon word here - apologies)

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Scans of prints are never frowned upon here. And scans of negatives or slides are generally okay here too, as long as they are used in the right spirit.

Making the scanning process the subject is frowned upon, but using scans to share prints is welcome!

Luis-F-S said:

Either the dichroic head on my DeVere 5108 or the VCCE head on the LPL. If someone really wants a Condenser head I have a 5x7 Durst in storage! PM me!

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My 5x7 Durst is not a 138, it's the much larger SM-183. I've been given two L-138 over the years, although it was some 20 years ago, the SM183 I paid for dearly. A condenser enlarger shown with an Aristo diffused cold light head and the camera down, which can be swung up another 14" above the top of the column. I do have a full set of condensers for it. A very large enlarger that can make some very large enlargements. Not too many professional enlargers are being given away since so many have been scrapped over the years. Not plentiful like they were 20 years ago!

miha said:

So what is a true condenser enlarger? Where should the lamp filament be projected?

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No answer?


Clive, enlarging is no Zen, contact printig is (two emulsions touching each other).

bence8810 said:

Questions (I just started printing 14 months ago):
- When using the VC filtration, I can't see anything of an image projected through the red safety filter. I print large and my easel isn't perfect so I need to have the red safe image projected on the paper to adjust the placement of it on the easel. This again means I need to flip the switch to get the "white light" - use the red filter to adjust the paper - put the filtration back on again hence some shaking of the head. This relates to the first question but what I am wondering if there is a way to see a safe image projected on the paper with the filtration turned on?

View attachment 152114

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You should not need to use a red filter image for paper placement. Mark this placement using white light before going red or switch off the enlarger before placement.

Oh gosh, Luis, somebody tried to give me one of those SM183's a couple months ago, but with a colorhead on it. No place to put it. I did bring back a
184 8x10 unit with colorhead, and now am into the final fine-tuning, having completely refurbished and rewired it. Hell to haul up two set of stairs in
a downtown industrial basement. Even worse to get into my lab. So one was enough. I already had four other large format enlarger, one of them
bigger than anything Durst.

cliveh said:

You should not need to use a red filter image for paper placement. Mark this placement using white light before going red or switch off the enlarger before placement.

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My problem is that the easel I have for large prints is not fully stable and the blades move when I lift it up for placing the paper. After closed, i can be sure that at least 2 corners of the 4 have moved somewhat. This is why I need to once again with the paper in place see where the image falls.
With the VC filtration turned on nothing comes through the red filter so I see nothing. I need to switch on the white light and when all done and blades are fastened with some extra magnets, I go back to filtration. This switching of the white light / VC filters is a mechanical thing and the head moves a little. I do hope it returns to the exact same position but I can't be sure. Once the paper is there I can't check for focus anymore.

Ben

Sounds like you need a new easel, although a 20 x 24 from 35mm just boggles my mind..............The blades on my 16x20 easel don't do that and I'm only printing from 8x10..................

Luis-F-S said:

Sounds like you need a new easel, although a 20 x 24 from 35mm just boggles my mind..............The blades on my 16x20 easel don't do that and I'm only printing from 8x10..................

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In Japan it's hard (and expensive) to buy a 20x24 easel (Saunders etc) and buying from overseas would be dreadful with shipping.
This leaves me with the LPL 24x24 easel that is sort of 4 bladed although the blades are only supported on one end and the other end is sort of just hanging around the frame, see below. This actually shows a smaller version but the concept is the same:



You can see the bottom right corner, those aren't really fixed they just slide freely. The bigger the easel the more the trouble.

I just checked with Yodobashi the local dealer, Kaiser is available for a mere $2,000 USD locally

http://www.yodobashi.com/カイザー-プロマスク-50×60cm/pd/100000001000882581/

So I guess what I am trying to say is that I need a red safety filter for now. Should someone drop a proper easel on my lap, I'd be happy to remove it.
For up to 11x14 I am all set as I have a proper 4 bladed easel and therefore hardly ever use the red filter, only if my expo time is very small and I want to pre-set the dodging / burning tool to the right place before the actual expo but this is rare.

About the enlarging size, it's just a matter of taste. I like the big grainy images - see this 110cmX80cm enlargement I did a few months ago:



Grain is all over the place:



Ben

bence8810 said:

You can see the bottom right corner, those aren't really fixed they just slide freely. The bigger the easel the more the trouble.

I just checked with Yodobashi the local dealer, Kaiser is available for a mere $2,000 USD locally

http://www.yodobashi.com/カイザー-プロマスク-50×60cm/pd/100000001000882581/

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Even with shipping you should be able to get a used one that has the blades attached at both ends [much better]. Watch APUG Classifieds and http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?27-For-Sale-Wanted

Sirius Glass said:

Even with shipping you should be able to get a used one that has the blades attached at both ends [much better]. Watch APUG Classifieds and http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?27-For-Sale-Wanted

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Without a doubt better but shipping will be around 200USD which kills the deal.
I can manage to use my current easel just fine I just need the red safety filter with the image projected to the paper for 10 seconds.

The only issue I have is since I changed to this VC head, the red image is not appearing on the paper as it's being totally filtered out. If I flip the switch to the white light it works but I worry knocking the head out of alignment.

What is your opinion, can a Beseler 23ciii head easily knocked out of position or it should be sturdy enough to return to the exactly same place?
Ben