Difficulty removing exposed film from Rolleicord V

runswithsizzers

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I'm not sure what's going on with my recently purchased Rolleiocord V, but I am having great difficulty removing the exposed film rolls from the camera.

After rewinding, I open the back and pull out on the spring loaded metal plug opposite the rewind knob. The film spool pops up on the one side as expected, but it really does not want to come out!! There is nothing much to get a grip on -- I've tried pulling up on the paper film backing, and trying to leverage it out by pushing and pulling on the raised end of the spool. But it takes way more force than is reasonable to pry it out. Is there something wrong with my camera, or am I missing something about the process?

As I recall, the Mamiya C220 I used allowed me to pull out the metal studs on both ends of the film spool, but the Owner's manual for my Rolleicord shows only the one side can be pulled out.



At this point, my film gets seriously jammed, and it does not want to come out.
 

MattKing

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Are you sure the knob on the right end doesn't move slightly as well?
And does turning that knob 90 degrees make a difference?
 

MattKing

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I have at least one camera where the position of rotation of the wind knob makes a big difference.
 

Nopo

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My rolleicord IV has the same problem, whether with foma, bergger or kodak film.
I usually put it back in place and take it out again, several times until I get it right.


Carlos
 

Dan Daniel

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To add to Matt's point on the position of the winding knob: There is a tab that goes into the end slot on the spool. To deal with each extreme position- if the tab is aligned top to bottom in reference to the camera, parallel to the film plane and lens board, upward rotation of the spool is limited. If the tab is aligned 90 degrees to the film plane, and lens board, has one end pointing backwards at you, then the spool has the most upward rotation.

Once you get it out, use the empty spool to run some tests. The winding knob is directly tied to the winding tab, so you could put a small drop of paint or such on the winding knob (side serration?) so you can orient the tab down the road.

You could also grind down the left knob inner part since it appears to be too long and is probably the real source of the problem. Maybe the old metal spools had a bit more relief on the end flanges after the outer reinforced lip?
 

MattKing

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My Toyocaflex TLR presents the biggest challenge with respect to respect to this issue - the take-up chamber is quite tight.
When I use it, I try to have at hand something that makes it easier to scoop out the resisting spool.
@Dan Daniel 's point about the old metal spools is a good one.
 

F4U

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Back when these cameras were made, Kodak 120 spools were metal, and the ends were a lot different tan these modern plastic spools.
 

250swb

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Nopo said:
My rolleicord IV has the same problem, whether with foma, bergger or kodak film.
I usually put it back in place and take it out again, several times until I get it right.


Carlos
Click to expand...

It is the film spool that is the problem, not the camera.

I don't think there is any special trick to loading and unloading a 120 film in an older camera, the spools aren't made to an international standard and sometimes it's easy and sometimes not. It's possible to struggle for a few minutes with a camera and film combination you know well only for it to almost fall out and you think 'what was all the fuss about'. It's only a fraction of a millimetre you are looking for and turning the film advance crank can often give it to you, but generally if it's stuck push it back in and try again gently, pulling against a film that is wedged just wedges it more.
 
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runswithsizzers

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Looking at a handful of 120 film spools, I have two basic types. I believe the "keyhole" shaped holes (on the left) are from Kodak films, and the "cross" shaped holes are from Ilford/Kentmere films (need to verify that). Trying them out for fit in my Rolleicord V, the spools with the cross-shaped holes are definitely more difficult to remove than the keyhole versions.

Among the keyhole versions, some are easier to remove than others, but as a class, they are all easier to remove than the cross-hole versions.

I don't believe it is a difference in length that makes the cross-hole spools fit too tight, but I think it is the inner diameter of the hole which is gripping the shaft of the wind knob too tightly. After I drill the end holes of the spools with a 7/32-inch bit, they are much easier to remove!

So I prepared a half-dozen film spools by drilling the end hole with a 7/32" bit. Drilling the plastic leaves a semi-melted burr inside the slots which had to be shaved off with the tip a sharp knife (don't forget to blow out the crumbs). To save time, and to preserve a good fit on the other end, I drilled only one end of each spool, and marked it with a metallic silver Sharpie pen. Not sure I'd want to try this without a drill press; if you use a hand drill, take care to avoid injury!

In addition to the above, I marked the Rolleicord wind knob so I can position the shaft-tabs perpendicular to the film plane.

Now I can remove the spools without a big struggle, so problem solved!

 
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Dan Daniel

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Well, I know t his will bother some people, but the cleanest answer is to grind back the end of the left spool holder. I'm sure it is more than long enough and taking off 1/2 mm would probably make all the other adaptations unneeded.
 
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runswithsizzers

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Dan Daniel said:
Well, I know t his will bother some people, but the cleanest answer is to grind back the end of the left spool holder. I'm sure it is more than long enough and taking off 1/2 mm would probably make all the other adaptations unneeded.
Click to expand...
I considered doing that, but I did not want to try to grind the metal while the knob was mounted in the camera; is it easy to remove the knob?

Presently, the camera is loaded with a new roll of film, but next time it is empty I will look at it more closely.

Edit: Please clarify; when you say "...grind back the end of the left spool holder..." -- do you mean left side when the camera is held from behind in the shooting position? Or the left side when looking at the front of the camera? That is, are you suggesting the spring loaded part that is pulled out may not be retracting completely? Or is the shaft on the winding knob too long?
 
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Dan Daniel

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There are three small screws on the outside flange of the knob that hold it in place. If the knob will stay up, that is best for removal as the knob itself shades the screws for removal. If it won't stay up, you need to pull the knob up with one hand, hold the flange down with the other hand, and unscrew the knob with your third hand. Oh, the screws are not evenly spaced around the circle, so be ready to have to get the holes lined up when you reinstall.

There may be a thin paper gasket under the knob. Don't worry if it gets ripped; not critical.

I mean left from the back. The side of the camera with no wind knob and no focus knob.

Obviously your call if it is really worth doing. If I was shooting the camera often, I probably would just to avoid concern over having the proper drilled and coded spools. But if it was an every now and then shooter, just put the modified spool in when you finish a roll, maybe put a second one in the feed side so you have a spare, and do what you have determined works well.
 
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runswithsizzers

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I am not a prolific medium format shooter, recently, averaging about 1 roll per month (mixed in with my digital and 35mm activity). And I rarely shoot more than one roll during a shoot. So for me, keeping a few of the modified spools in my camera bag is probably the path of least resistance.

When the newness of my new-to-me Rolleicord V wears off a little, I will probably start using my 35mm cameras again. If so, I may want to send the Rolleicord to you for a CLA, and maybe you can modify the left spool holder for me?
 
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runswithsizzers

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I just removed the first roll of film from my Rolleicord V which was wound onto one of my modified spools (see post #12). This exposed roll was easily removed. If the other spools I drilled continue to work as well as this one did, I will consider the problem solved.

Looking closely at the left-side spool knob, when I pull back on that, the entire shaft retracts, and no part remains inside the walls of the camera interior. In other words, in my case, there woud be no benefit in grinding off the end of the left-side shaft. I am convinced that whatever the problem is, the source of the problem is on the right-hand side -- something to do with the winding knob shaft.

As best as I can measure with my old-and-worn Eldi vernier calipers, the round part of my Rolleicord wind knob shaft is 5.5mm in diameter. And the round part of the recess in the end of the spools I have measure 5.1-5.2mm. My theory is, the undersize holes in the plastic spools are gripping the end of the wind knob too tightly.

The 7/32" drill bit I used to enlarge the holes in the spools should make a hole about 0.219-inch or 5.56mm. When I measure the drilled holes, I get a little less than that, 5.4-5.5mm. But as I mentioned, the plastic did not drill cleanly so I may be trying to measure slightly irregular holes. I probably should have used a new bit and reduced the speed of my drill press. But whatever the modified holes may measure, they now work as expected, which is all I care about.

If my assessment of the problem is correct, then solving the problem by modifying the camera would not be a diy process for me. Once the wind knob is removed from the camera, the tabs or "ears" would need to be detached from the shaft (I assume they are removable?). Then I think the shaft part would need to be lathe-turned to reduce the diameter(?) For me, the quick and easy solution is to keep a half-dozen modified film spools available in my camera bag ready for whenever I change film.
 

John Wiegerink

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Couldn't you cut one of your 120 plastic spool cores in half, that would allow you to play around with it on the wind shaft without getting stuck in the camera itself.
 
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runswithsizzers

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John Wiegerink said:
Couldn't you cut one of your 120 plastic spool cores in half, that would allow you to play around with it on the wind shaft without getting stuck in the camera itself.
Click to expand...
When I try pushing one-half of a film spool onto the end of the wind knob shaft, it confirms my suspicion that the fit is too tight.
---

I am trying to think of some reason why the plastic film spools would not have been designed to properly fit the camera parts?

Can whatever plastic molding process was used not be controlled to +/- 0.5mm tolerances? Do different camera manufacturers design their film spool parts to different specifications, and the Rolleis are larger than average?
 

John Wiegerink

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I wouldn't go as far to say "all" Rollei cameras have the same shaft size. I have a nice Rolleicord III and five other Rolleiflex cameras and have no problems with removing the take-up spool.
 

abruzzi

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Some 120 cameras have issues pulling the take-up spool. The Pentax 67 for instance has a lot of complaints I've heard online. In many cases it may just require a trick of some kind. I don't know with the Rolleicord, but on the Pentax 67 (at least with mine) the trick is not to try to pull out the bottom of the spool, but rather push up the top of the spool, and it makes the bottom flip out. You might try something like that to see if it helps.

Having customized spools is a reasonable workaround, but since there are many Rolleicords out there and most don't need custom spools, I'd think that either your camera isn't built to spec (i.e. manufacturing tolerances), or there is a way that works that you haven't thought of yet.
 
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