Development troubleshooting (and some other questions)

[Miles51]

Hello everyone!! I have some questions regarding C-41 development. I have been developing my film for a while now, with bad to medium results, I have developed about 7 rolls so far, and none have given me satisfactory results. I have multiple issues, the main one being that I do it at home, in my kitchen, with not the best equipment, so temperature control is very difficult (I'm looking into getting a better suited thermometer for the task), but the last couple of rolls I developed have given me awful results, the worst ones so far, and I though it was about time I started looking into what could be the cause of all the problems, because by now simple lack of practice just doesn't cut it

The biggest problem i'm having is that my negatives turn out very, very, very grainy, and like, foggy. The lighter ones look as if they had been overexposed, which I know they haven't been, and the dark ones have this weird glare that just ruins everything.

Another problem is that because the whole process for me is so "home-made" I can't really pinpoint at which point did things go bad. I develop at home, but then also digitalize my photos by taking pictures of them with my DSLR, because I don't have access to a scanning service and totally don't have money to buy a scanner myself, hehe. So most times I can't tell if the problems come from the taking of the photos, the developing, or the photo of the negative. Though, in these last couple of rolls, I can tell the issue happened either at the moment of taking the picture, or at the moment of the development.

I attach some examples. They are the positive image obtained from the negative in Photoshop CC by inverting and applying Auto Contrast and Auto Tone, no further corrections. They were taken with a Kodacolor 200 roll (expires in 2017), pushed at 400. Developed for 4.15 min at 38ºC (as per the intructions from my kit). I buy a pre-mixed kit, the people at the photo store where I got it told me it's a Kodak kit. It uses Developer, Pre-Bleach (stop bath), Bleach, Fix and Stabilizer. I'm 100% sure the chemicals were all at 38ºC when they were poured in the tank, though there is a possibility one of the water baths was colder.

Also, the first time ever I developed, I made an awful mistake and didn't wash between chemicals, but I kept using them because they looked fine: Developer had a very light tint, but it was consistent with the tint of the water coming out from the tank in the pre-wash, so I guessed that was the reason, and I only re-use developer once. Pre Bleach was clear when I got it, now it's pinkish, but my instructions don't call for a wash between the developer and the pre-bleach. The bleach was a "alien-blood" yellow color (super freaky, I find that color disturbing ), now it's a dark green-yellowish (still with that neon freaky tint ). The fixer is colorless, though just a teeny tiny bit whiteish, and the stabilizer is clear, but I see it has a residue building up in the bottom of the bottle.

I would also like to take the chance to ask if you guys think my chemical could be bad since I am considering replacing them, even though they should, theoretically, last for about 17 more rolls or so (not the developer, of course).

I add at each photo as much detail as I remember. Mainly I would like to know if these are developing errors or shooting errors, and how I can avoid them in the future =)

This one was taken a foggy morning, see how there is very little detail, and waaaay more grain and noise than there should be at that ISO, even if pushed, I think.

Another one from the same morning

This one was taken on a rainy afternoon. The sky was really gray and dark, not at all how it looks there, but then again, that could be photoshop missing at the white balance.

This one was taken at the park at night, with a tripod. See how it has that white/blue glare or fog on one side?

Same night at the park

Same night.


I thank anyone who answers in advance!! I know I just did a super long post and I really apologize!! I'm just s frustrated at not being able to identify my mistakes so I can correct them

Thanks a lot!!!! <3 <3 <3

 

[Peltigera]

Why are you pushing the film? If it was me, I would master the technique by doing everything by the book - including shooting at box speed. Once I was getting guaranteed results, then I would worry about pushing the film. One less thing to go wrong.

How does the camera work with a lab developing the film? If you get good results with a lab, then you know it is your developing. If the lab results are also had, you know it is the camera or photographer. Incidentally, what camera are you using?

 

[Miles51]

Hi! Thanks for your answer! I'm using a Fujica STX-1. In this case I pushed the film because I didn't have 400 ISO film and I needed it for the light conditions I had. But in general, I just like the results that pushed film gives, I rarely shoot at box speed, and I figured that there wasn't much difference since the only thing that changes in the developing process is developing speed.

Lab developed pictures turn out great in the camera. Initially I had some issues because the light meter in it tends to overexpose the film, but after I figured it out, i had no more issues. The thing is that I have to develop the film myself because there are no labs where I live, the few rolls I could develop at a lab I did when my boyfriend was living in the city, but now he moved, so I have no choice but develop it myself.
Here are some examples of photos that were developed at the lab.

These 3 were shot with a Kodak ProImage 100 pushed to 400

And these 2 are from an Agfa Vista 400 pushed to 1600 that I developed myself

 

[Alan9940]

C-41 processing can be a bit tricky, but there are so many issues here I really don't know where to begin; and, though you've provided quite a few details, many remain MIA. First, temperature control with any of the color processes--C-41 or E-6--is critical. IMO, working with water baths, etc, in the kitchen sink is not the best way to go. Your kit would certainly be suspect to me! I would be hard pressed to trust the "people at the camera store", unless I had a working known relationship with them. The fact that the kit is pre-mixed is also worrisome to me.

Like Peltigera asks...Why are you pushing the film? If you shoot color negative film at box speed and have it processed by a lab, what is the result? If the prints look normal, then you're camera is functioning properly and your technique is OK. If you really want to process C-41 at home, I'd recommend the following:

1. Make sure your camera and technique are good, per the lab comment.

2. Make sure you're using good non-expired film.

3. Shoot at box speed until you've got your home processes nailed down and are getting acceptable results; then experiment.

4. Buy a temperature regulated holding bath, rudimentary rotary processing system, or a Jobo CPE-2. Since I own a Jobo, my opinion here is somewhat biased, of course, toward a Jobo. If you invest in one of these machines, you'll never look back. Really! It's one of the best investments I ever made in my photography.

5. Buy a Tetenal C-41 kit and follow the instructions explicitly until you're satisfied with your results.

6. Mix your chemistry in distilled water. Tap water quality varies greatly!

I think the above would be a good start and if you're methodical I can't imagine you wouldn't get good results. Hope something I've said here helps.

Good luck!

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[Sirius Glass]

Which C-41 chemicals did you use?
Was the film out of date?
Pushing film before being able to use box speed and follow the directions yielding good results was not a good thing to do.
How did you maintain temperature and how accurately?

Welcome to APUG

 

[Miles51]

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate your tips, but really, most of them are inaccesible to me. I am 100% aware that developing in my kitchen sink is not the best way to go, but it is the only way to go for now, for two reasons: One, I am a student with only a part time job and really have absolutely no money to spare, not even in a film scanner, much, much less machinery for development. So far my best choices, and what i am trying to get, are a digital fish tank thermometer for easier temperature checks, and probably a fishtank heater, if I can get one that goes up to 38ºC to maintain the temperature. The other reason is that I'm moving to Europe at the end of the year and don't want to invest in equipment I won't be able to bring with me. Still, the temperature control part is one thing I have mostly dominated by now, like I said, I kept all the chemicals at the correct temperature, but one wash did get cold, I am definitely going to load more water bottles next time =)

I have developed expired and pushed film at home with acceptable results, of course, there is room for improvement, but they were still much better than the ones I posted here. see my answer to Peltigera for examples on that and on photos taken by me and developed by a lab.

Also, as I said in the previous post, I have to develop at home because I don't have access to a lab anymore.

As for the kit, again, I live in a very small city, where analog photography is pretty much inexistent, so this kit is the only one I can get, I have no other alternatives. And, again, it has produced better results in the past.

I'll definitely use distilled water for the baths next time!! =)

 

[Alan9940]

Well, I certainly applaud your efforts and conviction! Given your budgetary and other constraints, I'd find an affordable lab (if possible) and leave the color processing to them. Then, I'd shoot B&W for home development. B&W film is much easier to deal with and not so picky about overall processing technique.

I will you all the best in your photographic efforts!

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[Miles51]

Yeah, I just loaded my first roll of B&W in my camera. Unfortunately, there are no labs in my town, so getting someone to develop for me is not an option

 

[Sirius Glass]

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate your tips, but really, most of them are inaccesible to me. I am 100% aware that developing in my kitchen sink is not the best way to go, but it is the only way to go for now, for two reasons: One, I am a student with only a part time job and really have absolutely no money to spare, not even in a film scanner, much, much less machinery for development. So far my best choices, and what i am trying to get, are a digital fish tank thermometer for easier temperature checks, and probably a fishtank heater, if I can get one that goes up to 38ºC to maintain the temperature. The other reason is that I'm moving to Europe at the end of the year and don't want to invest in equipment I won't be able to bring with me. Still, the temperature control part is one thing I have mostly dominated by now, like I said, I kept all the chemicals at the correct temperature, but one wash did get cold, I am definitely going to load more water bottles next time =)

I have developed expired and pushed film at home with acceptable results, of course, there is room for improvement, but they were still much better than the ones I posted here. see my answer to Peltigera for examples on that and on photos taken by me and developed by a lab.

Also, as I said in the previous post, I have to develop at home because I don't have access to a lab anymore.

As for the kit, again, I live in a very small city, where analog photography is pretty much inexistent, so this kit is the only one I can get, I have no other alternatives. And, again, it has produced better results in the past.

I'll definitely use distilled water for the baths next time!! =)

Hot water in the sink will work but you have to keep an eye on the thermometer so that you can add more hot water when the temperature starts to drop. I have processed slides that way with good results.

 

[RPC]

With no washes, you likely contaminated the solutions following the washes.

The developer is the only one where temperature is critical. The other solutions can vary by a few degrees or more with no problems. You don't need a temperature controlling device or fancy processor. If you are using small developing tanks, a water bath can suffice to hold the developer temperature in the tank at an average of 38 degrees C.

The official development time is 3 minutes, 15 seconds. You said 4.15; if that is not a typo, I would not trust your brand of chemistry.

I would recommend you go to the color forum in the archives and read threads you can find on this subject if you are serious about it. You will learn a lot. If your questions are not answered there feel free to ask here.

 

[Miles51]

Yes, 4:15 because I pushed the film 2 stops, for box speed it is in fact 3.15 =). So, you would say it is in fact advisable to buy a new batch of chemicals and just take better care of these ones? Do you think contaminated chemicals can be the reason why the photos are so grainy and have so little detail?
I trust the vendor of my kit because they have been recommended to me by many other photographers I know, so I don't think the chemicals would have been bad from the start. The thing is developing chemicals are very difficult to find in my country because imports are heavily restricted and regulated here, so hobby kits or small kits are nowhere to be seen. The only ones available are those big 5 gallon kits, so the guys at these photo store fraction them and sell them in smaller sizes for the people that can't use that much before it goes bad.

 

[RPC]

I believe contamination could have caused your problems. You can continue to try your brand, but I would definitely buy new.

Pushing may have also been a contributing factor; I have never tried it.

 

[Miles51]

I believe contamination could have caused your problems. You can continue to try your brand, but I would definitely buy new.

Pushing may have also been a contributing factor; I have never tried it.

Thanks a lot!! I will definitely be doing that!

 

[JOR]

Scans of the lab-processed film look OK, so the processing is likely to be the problem. In my experience colour negative film never shows the coarse grain in the scans, which confirms the diagnosis - your temperature control is deficient, which is causing reticulation, a wrinkling of the emulsion because of rapid temperature changes. The other problems you describe are probably from the same basic problem.
To ensure stable temperatures I fill a 15-litre bucket with water at 38,5 ...39°C, which takes quire a while to cool. I use it to dilute the chemistry, then for two pre-washes, which trim the temperature of the tank and spirals and lastly for the washes. I use the Ilford time/temperature graph to adjust the development time according to the measured temperature - it won't have cooled much.
Best of luck!

 

[Miles51]

Scans of the lab-processed film look OK, so the processing is likely to be the problem. In my experience colour negative film never shows the coarse grain in the scans, which confirms the diagnosis - your temperature control is deficient, which is causing reticulation, a wrinkling of the emulsion because of rapid temperature changes. The other problems you describe are probably from the same basic problem.
To ensure stable temperatures I fill a 15-litre bucket with water at 38,5 ...39°C, which takes quire a while to cool. I use it to dilute the chemistry, then for two pre-washes, which trim the temperature of the tank and spirals and lastly for the washes. I use the Ilford time/temperature graph to adjust the development time according to the measured temperature - it won't have cooled much.
Best of luck!

Thanks!! I will make sure to have better temperature control next time then!! =)

 

[Rudeofus]

I would like to ask a few questions to Miles51:

• Your scans look extremely blurry compared to the lab processed images you posted. Did you scan and post process both sets of negs the same way?
• Can you tell us the times and temperatures you used for each process step?
• If you expose a short negative test clip to daylight, then develop it in a B&W film/paper developer (whichever one you can find), your test clip should look mostly black. If you then run this test clip through prebleach, bleach and fixer, does it clear up and show nothing but its orange base?

 

[Xmas]

You need a reasonable thermometer.

A plastic washing up basin and electric kettle is ok, but don't use it for dishes after.

Hold the water in the wash up basin at a degree above c41 temperature throughout the process.

Wear rubber gloves and safety glasses.

Don't push process film if you like normal colours until you are sick of normal colours. If you need two stops over or under dial the ISO into the camera and hope it is like digital it is almost ok 2 stops.

Mono is simpler for a beginner think of it like using a graphite pencil, look at any photo graphic exhibits or books or web sites in mono.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

Don't try pushing mono either if you are an artist XP2 or BW400CN are designed for C41 chemicals their ISO is like digital 50 to 800.

My scanner for profing was 10 GBP about 20 USD.

When you get to somewhere settled join a photo club and hope you get a free enlarger, trays etc there are still silver gelatine colour papers and I only used a drum and heavy drapes at night for cibachrome wet printing.

The film thing is as difficult as photo shop to learn but you gain lots of things as well as film.

Good luck.

 

[Miles51]

I would like to ask a few questions to Miles51:

• Your scans look extremely blurry compared to the lab processed images you posted. Did you scan and post process both sets of negs the same way?
• Can you tell us the times and temperatures you used for each process step?
• If you expose a short negative test clip to daylight, then develop it in a B&W film/paper developer (whichever one you can find), your test clip should look mostly black. If you then run this test clip through prebleach, bleach and fixer, does it clear up and show nothing but its orange base?

- Well, the pictures that were processed at the lab were scanned by the lab, I imagine they have a good scanner over there. The other two I show there that I developed I "scanned" by taking photos of the negatives with my DSLR (Nikon D5200), it's a very poor solution, but I don't have a scanner myself, nor do I have access to a scanner. Still, it does produce decent results, at least to see how the pictures came out. I shoot the pictures at ISO 125, f 5.6-10 (depends on what the specific part of negative requires), and speed 1/30 - 1/100 (again, depends what the negative requires). I do it with a tripod, so 1/30 still produces good images.

- Mmmm I don't remember exactly, but it was a bit like this: Pre-wash 37.8º, 2 minutes. Developer 38º, 4.15 minutes (pushed the film 2 stops). Pre-Bleach 38º, 2 minutes. 3 Washes, 1 minute each. Bleach 38º, 3 minutes. 4 Washes, 30 seconds, 1 minute, 1:30 minutes, 2 minutes. Fix 38º, 2 minutes. Wash, 2 minutes. Stabilizer 37.5º, 1 minute. Hung to dry for 2 hours.
The washes may have been the problem, since I didn't have as much control in a couple of them. I ran out of the bottled water so I used hot tap water, I did measure the temperature before putting it in the tank, but it could have variated, though I don't imagine it could have been any colder than 35.5, though I do understand that's a big difference when developing.

One of the photos (I can't find it now) did have these like cracked marks, that I understand are typical for changes in temperature, I just didn0t know that it could manifest as extreme noise as well.

- I can't really get my hands on B&W developer for now, is it the same if I use C41 developer?

What about the fogginess? Could that have been caused by the temperature changes? I read that it could have been light leaks or poor fixer (could be that mine is slightly contaminated)

 

[Rudeofus]

If you have negatives that have cracked marks, then something is seriously broken in your process, like extreme water temperature, or completely wrong process liquids. Films made by Kodak and Fuji are well hardened, and I have used wash water anywhere from 15°C all the way up to 50°C with no bad effects.

Apart from that some things come to my mind:

• 3 minutes bleach time seems short, and incomplete bleaching would show up as poor colors and excessive grain. You can rebleach and refix a test clip and see whether this improves things. You won't see much change in the negs because of the orange mask and because retained silver exists only in those areas where dye was formed, but the inverted scan should look very different. If a 4-5 minute rebleach improves results, try to use 6 minutes bleach time at your next process run.
• The idea behind the test clip in B&W developer was that B&W developer builds up silver but no dye. After bleaching you would/should have blank negs that look exactly like a test clip thrown directly into the fixer. If the B&W processed, then bleached and fixed test clip looks darker, then you know that bleaching was incomplete. Since C-41 developer builds up dye as it develops silver, you can't use it for this test. Let me know whether you have any photo chemistry besides the C-41 kit available to you, maybe we can find something that works for this test.
• In order to get a reference, you need to evaluate your lab processed negs in exactly the same way as your own negs. While people write about how proper C-41 processing gives good sharpness, there is no process fault short of complete destruction of your emulsion that would explain the extreme blur in your dSLR scans.
• There is a good chance that your dSLR scans are somewhat faulty. You could do the following to find out: take a blank test clip (either you have one, or throw unexposed film clip into fixer), tape off half the frame with black electrical tape, then perform your scan and post process. If the result is anything but a frame that's half dark and half bright with a very sharp edge boundary, you know your scanning procedure needs work. Any faults like poor focusing, flare, camera shake etc. would immediately show up in this test.

 

[Miles51]

If you have negatives that have cracked marks, then something is seriously broken in your process, like extreme water temperature, or completely wrong process liquids. Films made by Kodak and Fuji are well hardened, and I have used wash water anywhere from 15°C all the way up to 50°C with no bad effects. Apart from that some things come to my mind:

• 3 minutes bleach time seems short, and incomplete bleaching would show up as poor colors and excessive grain. You can rebleach and refix a test clip and see whether this improves things. You won't see much change in the negs because of the orange mask and because retained silver exists only in those areas where dye was formed, but the inverted scan should look very different. If a 4-5 minute rebleach improves results, try to use 6 minutes bleach time at your next process run.
• The idea behind the test clip in B&W developer was that B&W developer builds up silver but no dye. After bleaching you would/should have blank negs that look exactly like a test clip thrown directly into the fixer. If the B&W processed, then bleached and fixed test clip looks darker, then you know that bleaching was incomplete. Since C-41 developer builds up dye as it develops silver, you can't use it for this test. Let me know whether you have any photo chemistry besides the C-41 kit available to you, maybe we can find something that works for this test.
• In order to get a reference, you need to evaluate your lab processed negs in exactly the same way as your own negs. While people write about how proper C-41 processing gives good sharpness, there is no process fault short of complete destruction of your emulsion that would explain the extreme blur in your dSLR scans.
• There is a good chance that your dSLR scans are somewhat faulty. You could do the following to find out: take a blank test clip (either you have one, or throw unexposed film clip into fixer), tape off half the frame with black electrical tape, then perform your scan and post process. If the result is anything but a frame that's half dark and half bright with a very sharp edge boundary, you know your scanning procedure needs work. Any faults like poor focusing, flare, camera shake etc. would immediately show up in this test.

Well, the cracks are invisible to the naked eye, i only saw them when I cranked the contrast waaay up in photoshop, and they only showed in one photo...I will do the test to check my scanning method, and try to get my hands on some B&W developer then. I have some, but I was saving it to develop the b&w roll I have in my camera now, so probably I will wait to do that other test until I do.What does throwing a piece of unexposed film directly into fixer should do? I tried it last night for 3 minutes and the film didn't clear at all.I will try rebleaching and fixind in a bit and post my results =)Thanks a lot!! You are being super helpful!!

 

[Xmas]

Take a DSLR photo of a negative the lab scanned successfully and compare their scan with yours.
Don't photo shop beyond converting it to positive.

 

[Rudeofus]

Well, the cracks are invisible to the naked eye, i only saw them when I cranked the contrast waaay up in photoshop, and they only showed in one photo...

If the emulsion looks ok by visual inspection, then reticulation should not be an issue here. Note that color negative film is pretty low contrast, which means you scan and post process procedure already uses high contrast. If you then crank up contrast waaay beyond normal, you may end up with all kinds of artifacts that are not present in the source material.

I will do the test to check my scanning method, and try to get my hands on some B&W developer then. I have some, but I was saving it to develop the b&w roll I have in my camera now, so probably I will wait to do that other test until I do.

About B&W developer: which one do you have? Maybe the working solution lasts a long time and you won't have to waste precious materials for this test?

What does throwing a piece of unexposed film directly into fixer should do? I tried it last night for 3 minutes and the film didn't clear at all.

If you throw a piece of unexposed film into your fixer, it should clear up and become fully transparent (with the orange base, of course). If this doesn't happen within less than a minute, then something very bad must have happened to your fixer. I recommend you investigate this as soon as possible, as it may reveal the true source of your C-41 woes.

 

[Miles51]

If the emulsion looks ok by visual inspection, then reticulation should not be an issue here. Note that color negative film is pretty low contrast, which means you scan and post process procedure already uses high contrast. If you then crank up contrast waaay beyond normal, you may end up with all kinds of artifacts that are not present in the source material.



About B&W developer: which one do you have? Maybe the working solution lasts a long time and you won't have to waste precious materials for this test?


If you throw a piece of unexposed film into your fixer, it should clear up and become fully transparent (with the orange base, of course). If this doesn't happen within less than a minute, then something very bad must have happened to your fixer. I recommend you investigate this as soon as possible, as it may reveal the true source of your C-41 woes.

I have Kodak Technidol B&W developer.

I tried the fixer test and it did not fully clear the test strip in 3 minutes, so I'm definitely replacing that.

But! Good news!! I tried re bleaching and fixing and I re scanned with a different method and I got MUCH better results!! Here are the examples. When I'm feeling up to it I will re scan another strip before bleaching and fixing to check if the problem was the scanning or if I should re bleach and fix the entire roll.

THANKS A LOT!! To everyone that helped, honestly, I didn't think I could resuscitate this roll at all!!

Before

After

PS: One unrelated question - The B&W developer I have comes in small pouches to develop one roll, it's liquid. It says that I should dilute the content of the pouch in enough sitilled water to get 237ml of solution (I think, or around that number), the thing is, my tank calls for 450ml to cover a 35mm roll, so, what should I do? Dilute one pouch in more water? Or use two pouches per roll?

 

[pentaxuser]

I hope that what I am seeing is the result of the scanner since while the "after" is better it still looks incredibly fuzzy and lacks any vibrancy

Have you examined the negative under a loupe and if so how does it look compared to the scans you have shown us?

pentaxuser

 

[Miles51]

I hope that what I am seeing is the result of the scanner since while the "after" is better it still looks incredibly fuzzy and lacks any vibrancy

Have you examined the negative under a loupe and if so how does it look compared to the scans you have shown us?

pentaxuser

Well, that is the result of the inversion and auto tone correction of photoshop, no further color corrections were made. Still, I can see in the negatives (haven't seen them under a magnifying glass though) that the noise and fuzziness is there, though I know from past experience that the photos of the negatives are always a little fuzzy and require a sharpening mask to improve, it's no where near as good as a scanner.
I do think that the other problem could have been that my chemicals are apparently bad, as per the test I did, so that could be a reason too.
Also, it was a very foggy day, so I didn't really expect any vibrance or saturation in the colors.