Developing tanks with aprons

MattKing · Jul 31, 2018

I do have a "universal" adjustable reel that works with 616 film, but loading it with the incredibly curly and brittle old 616 film I have is an exercise in frustration!
Thus my desire for a 616 apron.
Hmmm - perforated 70mm film adapted for use as an apron. Sounds like a possibility!

gorbas · Jul 31, 2018

Matt, Kodak Aerographic 70mm is on estar base, thin and very strong. Maybe is not bad idea to strip emulsion of it first? #116 film is 40" long. Just let me know when you would like to have it? Fishing lane is on you.

abruzzi · Jul 31, 2018

AgX said:
Why not? The paper thickness?

Camera "film" with a 35mm perforated paper base is nothing new. So the issue of tank developing would have come up before.

No idea. Too thin? Too fragile? Here is a video demonstrating building, setting up, and loading their development spool.

BAC1967 · Jul 31, 2018

MattKing said:
I do have a "universal" adjustable reel that works with 616 film, but loading it with the incredibly curly and brittle old 616 film I have is an exercise in frustration!
Thus my desire for a 616 apron.
Hmmm - perforated 70mm film adapted for use as an apron. Sounds like a possibility!

There are stainless steel reels for 616 film, I have one. They are a bit hard to find though.

MattKing · Jul 31, 2018

gorbas said:
Matt, Kodak Aerographic 70mm is on estar base, thin and very strong. Maybe is not bad idea to strip emulsion of it first? #116 film is 40" long. Just let me know when you would like to have it? Fishing lane is on you.

I will be in touch!

BAC1967 said:
There are stainless steel reels for 616 film, I have one. They are a bit hard to find though.

I have a feeling that if I have trouble loading this incredibly curly and brittle film using a plastic reel, I'm likely not to find it much easier with a stainless reel.

Arklatexian · Aug 1, 2018

AgX said:
All Apron tanks I knew of before were older than me...

However, today for the first time I learn of that Kodak tank. it seems to be younger.

The subject of this discussion sure makes me feel old, but then I AM old. I don't remember Kodak ever making a plastic developing tank other than the ones with the plastic sleeves and they were sold new as late as the late 1950s, maybe even 1960s/70s, here in the USA. In the late 1940s until the 1960s, the most popular plastic developing tanks were the FR and Ansco. Nikor steel tanks and reels came out about the same time. I did not see many of the Leitz tanks used......Regards!

MattKing · Aug 1, 2018

One of my Kodacraft plastic developing tanks was bought new for me by my Dad in 1967. It may have been an employee purchase from Kodak Canada, or it may have been purchased from a local Kodak dealer - Dad managed the dealer pickup and drop-off film processing program that ran out of the Kodak lab in North Vancouver.

ozphoto · Aug 1, 2018

I started out with one of these and it was *very* easy to use.

Matt kindly sold me one for my niece and she is itching to shoot her first roll of B&W to have some fun with one of these too. I might need to "borrow" it back from her to process some really old film that I'm sure won't be happy to load on to my Patterson reels.

I note that some of the boxes had "For developing B&W Only" (or words to that effect) - perhaps alluding to the deterioration you experienced with colour processing, Marcelo?

eddie · Aug 1, 2018

When I taught high school photography (way back when...) the kids all used "lasagnas". It was the best way for them to get good negatives right from the start. I never saw them for anything other than 35mm, though.

abruzzi · Aug 1, 2018

I never knew anything about them until about 4 months ago when I bought a bunch of darkroom equipment from a local guy. I was in it for the Omega D2 enlarger, and all the other enlarger based stuff, but I also got a bunch of misc stuff in the deal. It included a Kodacraft tank and pair of 35mm aprons. I tried them and loved how easy they were. Since then I bought some more, including 120 setups from eBay. If you search eBay for "kodacraft" and keep a watch out, you can usually get a tank and aprons for about $15-20, and occasionally the 120 setups show up for sale.

AgX · Aug 1, 2018

Which manufacturer actually introduced that apron principle and when ??

BAC1967 · Aug 1, 2018

I mentioned the Kodak Day-Load tank as having a ribbon earlier in this thread, it's not. It uses a regular spiral as you can see in the instructions in this thread:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-day-load-tank-how-to.6687/

The comments in that thread don't give it very good reviews.

abruzzi · Aug 1, 2018

AgX said:
Which manufacturer actually introduced that apron principle and when ??

This page mentions aprons going back to 1902 with Kodak, but doesn’t show a picture of the apron. It does have a picture of an apron system from Correx in 1931:

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_D70-X.html

neilt3 · Aug 1, 2018

The aprons / Lasagna are available new from Firstcall photographic .
http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/firstcall-developing-tank-lasagna-reel/p856

Either used on there own in a single reel developing tank , or used to replace the one in your old Kodak tank .
35mm only though .

AgX · Aug 2, 2018

abruzzi said:
This page mentions aprons going back to 1902 with Kodak, but doesn’t show a picture of the apron. It does have a picture of an apron system from Correx in 1931:

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_D70-X.html

Thank you. Yes, years ago, when I first learned about that Apron system it was Correx that was named.

AgX · Aug 2, 2018

neilt3 said:
The aprons / Lasagna are available new from Firstcall photographic .
http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/firstcall-developing-tank-lasagna-reel/p856 .

I thought I understood a little bit of darkroom work, but that product description remains enigmatic to me...

-) how to fasten the film leader to the apron, as hinted at?

-) it is not stated to have the the collumn installed! (The way the coil is done in the sample, there would not even be space for a collumn.)

-) how it is prevented from the coil to move around the tank? Imagine the coil is wound just enough to stick a little on the collumn. It might move up the collumn during inverting and remain there, what would result in uneven development. It is necessary with an early Jobo two-reel tank to arrest the coil with the clamp. I guess with other two-reel tank a reel would have to be placed above the coil.

Paul Howell · Aug 2, 2018

As I recall using them in the 60s I never attached the film to the apron, just rolled the film in the apron, a metal plates with a number of holes held the roll in place, when using a larger 2 roll tank there were 2 plates, one plate between the rolls and a top plate. If you only developing one roll in the larger tank, loaded apron on the bottom, an to an empty apron and plate on top. And there is no column, the lid is similar to a stainless steel lid.

MattKing · Aug 2, 2018

The Kodacraft tanks can't be inverted for agitation. One uses "figure-eight" agitation on the table-top or sink bottom.
For that reason, you don't have to attach the film to the apron.

abruzzi · Aug 2, 2018

MattKing said:
The Kodacraft tanks can't be inverted for agitation. One uses "figure-eight" agitation on the table-top or sink bottom.
For that reason, you don't have to attach the film to the apron.

Yeah, the FirstCall one looks a bit different than Kodak. The Kodak ones have a 1 inch diameter loop at on end made rolling the end back on itself and fixing it by either rivet some other permanent attachment so the end looks like a 9 (or 6) The start of the film is pushed into the meeting point between the loop and the rest of the apron, then they are just rolled together.

Its not exactly clear how the FirstCall one works, but it looks like you roll them together the same way, though it might not have the pre constructed loop, then the end has that tuck-in attachment to hold it tight. At first I thought that tuck-in was to form the starting loop, but that means that the tongue would very likely contact the film in the image area where it sticks through.

MattKing · Aug 2, 2018

The loop on the Kodak apron is most likely there because it both prevents the film from travelling outside of the apron (at one end) and fits over a stub on the bottom of the tank. That keeps one end of the film+apron sandwich still, while the rest moves with agitation. I expect that the FirstCall version uses the the tuck-in attachment for the same purpose.

Trask · Aug 2, 2018

My experience using a tank/apron system some years ago was that the film was damaged by the raised bumps on the apron. I quickly abandoned further efforts as the tanks and reels that were my primary choice did such a better job.

Paul Howell · Aug 2, 2018

MattKing said:
The Kodacraft tanks can't be inverted for agitation. One uses "figure-eight" agitation on the table-top or sink bottom.
For that reason, you don't have to attach the film to the apron.

No that you mention it, your right, the cap only allowed the tank to be filled and emptied, don't recall a cap for inversion. While still in high school was taught to use SS reels and tanks and never looked back.

neilt3 · Aug 2, 2018

AgX said:
I thought I understood a little bit of darkroom work, but that product description remains enigmatic to me...

-) how to fasten the film leader to the apron, as hinted at?

-) it is not stated to have the the collumn installed! (The way the coil is done in the sample, there would not even be space for a collumn.)

-) how it is prevented from the coil to move around the tank? Imagine the coil is wound just enough to stick a little on the collumn. It might move up the collumn during inverting and remain there, what would result in uneven development. It is necessary with an early Jobo two-reel tank to arrest the coil with the clamp. I guess with other two-reel tank a reel would have to be placed above the coil.

I don't have one , and haven't used one yet , but my understanding is that you just start rolling it up and insert in the end of the film and continue rolling them together as Paul Howell say's .
When it's sat in there the scalloped edge is supposed to keep the film clear of it and only the edge of the film with the perforations come into contact with it .
The reason I had looked into this is for developing my own C41 APS film , though not bought one yet .
For 135 and 120 I use regular film reels and never had a problem loading them .

Paul Howell said:
As I recall using them in the 60s I never attached the film to the apron, just rolled the film in the apron, a metal plates with a number of holes held the roll in place, when using a larger 2 roll tank there were 2 plates, one plate between the rolls and a top plate. If you only developing one roll in the larger tank, loaded apron on the bottom, an to an empty apron and plate on top. And there is no column, the lid is similar to a stainless steel lid.

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