Developing several sheet films in trays, and developer efficiency.

[marciofs]

It will be the first time I will develop sheet film negative.

I have bought a Peterson tank for developing 6 sheets all together.

But if I develop each sheet individually in trays, do I have to renew the developer after each sheet?

 

[pdeeh]

What size sheets?
Which developer in what dilution?

 

[marciofs]

4x5in
R09 / Rodinal
Dilution 1+50

 

[cliveh]

4x5in
R09 / Rodinal
Dilution 1+50

What is the quantity of solution in the tray?

 

[marciofs]

What is the quantity of solution in the tray?

The more the better?

It would be 500ml

 

[cliveh]

Then I would think for 6 sheets you would be fine and perhaps do 2 at a time.

 

[marciofs]

Thank you.

 

[MattKing]

Sheet film in trays or large tanks is a great argument for using a replenishment regime with developers suited to that

 

[marciofs]

Sheet film in trays or large tanks is a great argument for using a replenishment regime with developers suited to that

I tried to learn about replenishment method but I found it too complicated to understand every step.

 

[MattKing]

I tried to learn about replenishment method but I found it too complicated to understand every step.

If you are using X-Tol:

1) Make up the 5 litres from the package;
2) Put 1 litre in a working solution bottle, labelled "working X-Tol". Put the rest in four separate 1 litre bottles labeled as "replenisher";
3) Develop your film in as much of the working solution as you need;
4) For each 4x5 sheet of film developed, transfer 20 ml of the replenisher into the working solution bottle. If you shoot roll film, use 70-80 ml per roll of 120 or 135-36;
5) When the developing is finished, pour the developer back into the working solution bottle. It will over-flow - discard that over-flow;
6) During any week that you don't develop film, pretend you developed 4 sheets of 4x5 - just discard 80 ml of working solution from the bottle, and top it up with replenisher;
7) When you get down to your last 1 litre bottle of replenisher, buy some more X-Tol, mix up the 5 litres, and divide it into 5 one litre bottles of replenisher. Keep using your old working solution, with the new replenisher.


If you start to see regular, slight under-development, increase slightly the amount you replenish per roll or sheet. If you start to see regular, slight over-development, decrease slightly the amount you replenish per roll or sheet.

T-Max RS works very similarly.

 

[palewin]

The rule is 10ml Rodinal for 80 square inches of film. If I understand you correctly, you would use 10ml Rodinal to make 500 ml (1+50), which would be enough for 4 sheets of 4x5 (20 sq inches per sheet times 4). So by my math you need more developer for 6 sheets (at least 750 ml).

What I don't know is how fast the mixture oxidizes. I typically develop 6 sheets at once in an 8x10 tray, using shuffle development and one liter of working solution to have enough depth of liquid to shuffle without scratching. But I don't use Rodinal, my developers of choice for 4x5 are PMK or Pyrocat HD. The PMK oxidizes so fast that I wouldn't try to run, say 3 batches of 2 sheets at a time through it.

 

[cliveh]

If you are using X-Tol:

1) Make up the 5 litres from the package;
2) Put 1 litre in a working solution bottle, labelled "working X-Tol". Put the rest in four separate 1 litre bottles labeled as "replenisher";
3) Develop your film in as much of the working solution as you need;
4) For each 4x5 sheet of film developed, transfer 20 ml of the replenisher into the working solution bottle. If you shoot roll film, use 70-80 ml per roll of 120 or 135-36;
5) When the developing is finished, pour the developer back into the working solution bottle. It will over-flow - discard that over-flow;
6) During any week that you don't develop film, pretend you developed 4 sheets of 4x5 - just discard 80 ml of working solution from the bottle, and top it up with replenisher;
7) When you get down to your last 1 litre bottle of replenisher, buy some more X-Tol, mix up the 5 litres, and divide it into 5 one litre bottles of replenisher. Keep using your old working solution, with the new replenisher.


If you start to see regular, slight under-development, increase slightly the amount you replenish per roll or sheet. If you start to see regular, slight over-development, decrease slightly the amount you replenish per roll or sheet.

T-Max RS works very similarly.

Matt, don't you think you may be adding confusion to a simple practical task of developing 6 sheets of 5 X 4 film?

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you are using X-Tol:

1) Make up the 5 litres from the package;
2) Put 1 litre in a working solution bottle, labelled "working X-Tol". Put the rest in four separate 1 litre bottles labeled as "replenisher";
3) Develop your film in as much of the working solution as you need;
4) For each 4x5 sheet of film developed, transfer 20 ml of the replenisher into the working solution bottle. If you shoot roll film, use 70-80 ml per roll of 120 or 135-36;
5) When the developing is finished, pour the developer back into the working solution bottle. It will over-flow - discard that over-flow;
6) During any week that you don't develop film, pretend you developed 4 sheets of 4x5 - just discard 80 ml of working solution from the bottle, and top it up with replenisher;
7) When you get down to your last 1 litre bottle of replenisher, buy some more X-Tol, mix up the 5 litres, and divide it into 5 one litre bottles of replenisher. Keep using your old working solution, with the new replenisher.


If you start to see regular, slight under-development, increase slightly the amount you replenish per roll or sheet. If you start to see regular, slight over-development, decrease slightly the amount you replenish per roll or sheet.

T-Max RS works very similarly.

Well said/written! Nice and clear!

 

[MattKing]

Matt, don't you think you may be adding confusion to a simple practical task of developing 6 sheets of 5 X 4 film?

Nope. Because using replenishment means you can stop worrying about wasting developer, or about having problems with insufficient capacity when you increase the number of sheets being developed at any one time.

It is good for those who develop sheets in trays. It is great for those who use tanks and hangers. And it works really, really well for those who develop rolls or sheets in daylight tanks.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Matt, don't you think you may be adding confusion to a simple practical task of developing 6 sheets of 5 X 4 film?

No, it also improve the tonal quality and sharpness with replenished XTOL.

 

[marciofs]

The rule is 10ml Rodinal for 80 square inches of film. If I understand you correctly, you would use 10ml Rodinal to make 500 ml (1+50), which would be enough for 4 sheets of 4x5 (20 sq inches per sheet times 4). So by my math you need more developer for 6 sheets (at least 750 ml).

What I don't know is how fast the mixture oxidizes. I typically develop 6 sheets at once in an 8x10 tray, using shuffle development and one liter of working solution to have enough depth of liquid to shuffle without scratching. But I don't use Rodinal, my developers of choice for 4x5 are PMK or Pyrocat HD. The PMK oxidizes so fast that I wouldn't try to run, say 3 batches of 2 sheets at a time through it.

I actually can develop 6 sheets in Peterson tank. But I would wait to get 6 sheets in orders to don't waist developer. Because I believe I would need to use the same amount of developer in the thank no matter if I have 6 sheets or only 3 or 2 sheets in it.

So I was wondering if I develop 2 or 3 sheets in trays I could use less developer than I would use in a Tank.

 

[cliveh]

Nope. Because using replenishment means you can stop worrying about wasting developer, or about having problems with insufficient capacity when you increase the number of sheets being developed at any one time.

It is good for those who develop sheets in trays. It is great for those who use tanks and hangers. And it works really, really well for those who develop rolls or sheets in daylight tanks.

So if you didn't replenish after each sheet, what difference in densitometer readings would you expect to see in six sheets?

 

[marciofs]

No, it also improve the tonal quality and sharpness with replenished XTOL.

I got convinced now.


A last question. It is only available in powder right? Which means we have to be more careful right? (I heard).

 

[Sirius Glass]

I actually can develop 6 sheets in Peterson tank. But I would wait to get 6 sheets in orders to don't waist developer. Because I believe I would need to use the same amount of developer in the thank no matter if I have 6 sheets or only 3 or 2 sheets in it.

So I was wondering if I develop 2 or 3 sheets in trays I could use less developer than I would use in a Tank.

I develop less than ten sheets in my tank. I just keep track of the number of sheets developed since the last replenishment.

 

[MattKing]

So if you didn't replenish after each sheet, what difference in densitometer readings would you expect to see in six sheets?

I don't know - not much. But if you have set up your procedures for replenishment, and then fail to replenish regularly, you won't get a consistent result from your developer.

For clarity, you don't need a densitometer to get reliable consistency from a replenishment regime.

 

[cliveh]

I don't know - not much. But if you have set up your procedures for replenishment, and then fail to replenish regularly, you won't get a consistent result from your developer.

For clarity, you don't need a densitometer to get reliable consistency from a replenishment regime.

But my point is that for 6 sheets of 5 X 4 replenishment is not necessary.

 

[MattKing]

I got convinced now.


A last question. It is only available in powder right? Which means we have to be more careful right? (I heard).

It is very easy to safely mix pre-packaged powdered chemicals. It is only a concern if you spray the powder all around, and that will only happen if you proceed very strangely or haphazardly, or decide to mix up your X-Tol in a wind storm.

You don't want to breathe in a bunch of the powder, but it just takes normal care to avoid that.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I got convinced now.


A last question. It is only available in powder right? Which means we have to be more careful right? (I heard).

Mix XTOL following the instructions.

I use a white plastic paint bucket that I have marked the 4.0 liter level and the 5.0 liter level.
Four liters of hot water.
Completely mix A powder - it looks orange.
Completely mix B powder - becomes clear.
Fill to five liters and mix some more.
​

Fill five one-liter bottles. Mark one bottle as the one for development. Sequentially use each of the remaining stock XTOL bottles as replenisher [use up each bottle before starting the next bottle].

I have had the seasoned [the replenisher bottle that you use] last for over two years by using this method. I just mix a new batch of stock XTOL when I need to and continuing using the same seasoned developer.

 

[MattKing]

But my point is that for 6 sheets of 5 X 4 replenishment is not necessary.

It is the same as for 1.5 rolls of film.

The replenishment procedure has lots of advantages for people who use any format, but in particular it is advantageous for anyone who uses multiple formats.

If someone is going to develop 2, 4 or 6 sheets of 4x5 once or twice, or very infrequently, but otherwise just develops roll film, it isn't worthwhile to switch to replenishment based only on the infrequent 4x5 use.

However, replenishment is economical, provides excellent quality, allows you to always work at your ambient temperature and makes it easy and convenient to tray develop a small number of 4x5 sheets without concern about wasting developer or exceeding capacity. So there are lots of reasons to use it.

 

[cliveh]

If someone is going to develop 2, 4 or 6 sheets of 4x5 once or twice, or very infrequently, but otherwise just develops roll film, it isn't worthwhile to switch to replenishment based

Thank you.