Developing questions... APUG RoCkS!!!!

[psychorobotape]

Alright well i'm still in the process of putting my darkroom together and have a couple more questions. I would like the ability to print 16x20 so am looking at buying some 18x22 trays (this is probably a stupid question but is there enough room in a 16x20 tray to dev 16x20 paper or do i need to go one tray size higher?)

but I also want to do smaller prints, 11x14 etc. I plan on reusing fixer but not developer at first so If I just use these big trays to dev smaller prints can I just pour a really low level (fluid level in tray) of water/chems in them so i'm not wasting developer on a 5x7 print in a huge tray or will this effect the prints' development? In other words do prints need to be in a deep bath of water/developer to develop properly or would like a 1/4" - 1/2" depth bath work fine? I'm going broke quickly and would like to buy as few trays as possible...

Also, I plan on developing primarliy ilford films at first (delta 100/400/3200, pan f, maybe a roll of tmax too). I'm currently researching what developer/stop/fixers to use. Does anyone have any sugesstions? I would like to use the same combo for all the films if possible and stick to something relatively cheap for now.

Thanks as usuall for all the great feedback!!! -psychorobotape

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Oh, man. You are gonna get a million answers here. I appreciate the fact you are trying to conserve. Most of us are. Let me offer my top three conservation tips.

1) Print size. The more time you spend playing around with 5X7 rc proof prints, then sticking them on the fridge where you can see them often, then you will make better decisions about what to spend time, money, paper and chemicals on which ones you want to make big. And how to make them big, particularly in terms of cropping, filters, etc.

2)Fixer. Two bath fixing is a must, IMO, for fiber papers. You don't need two trays. My process is: develop, stop in the sink, fix 30s, put in a holding tray. The holding tray can be a bathtub or whatever. When you're done printing, dump fix 1 into bottle, pour in second fix solution, refix everything for 30s. Using this method, the first fixer solution can last about 4 times as long as a single bath. The second bath is used to bring the silver out of the fibers. When the first bath weakens, replace it with you second bath, and mix a new second bath. Sorry if this is convoluted. Search for two-bath fixing, maybe get a better explanation.

Developer. I have found Dektol to easily last for four days in a tray if it's sealed with cellophane. And I mean sealed with no bubbles and sealed around the edges. I've used amidol on 3 consecutive days, and the prints on day 3 are no different from the prints on day 1. I hypothesize that dumping developer into and out of a bottle, by increasing the surface area a billion-fold for even that short period, is more oxidizing than simply sealing it in the tray. I base this only on observation.

Film and developer combos? Yikes.

 

[ricksplace]

You can pick up plastic food storage containers to use as trays. Try Wal Mart or Zellers or Dollarama type of store. For the big prints, I use wallpaper trays. See-saw the prints in and out of the solutions. They don't take up as much space as 16X20 trays and they use less chemicals too.

 

[Neal]

Dear psychorobotape,

I have found that Paterson trays have more room than generic trays and have enough room to process prints at the rated size. Other brand name trays my be as good, but I like the way the Paterson trays are designed. Enough room, the deep grooves make it easy to pick up a print, and the pour lip works well for me. To save cash and space you can use a single tray to process by pouring the fluid out after each step. You might consider using tube development as well, but I don't know how easy or cheap it is to find tubes for 16x20.

Going broke on developer???? If you can't afford developer, you can't afford film. :>) In my least efficient tank, Xtol diluted 1:1 costs me $0.30 when developing a single roll of 35mm. Stop and fixer are cheap. Too many options (use or don't use stop, what kind of stop, rapid or standard fixer, hardener or not, don't forget alkaline fixers!) to discuss.

Neal Wydra

 

[gainer]

I have used developing tubes for large prints. You can develop 11x14 with less than 6 oz. You load the tube in the dark and do the rest with lights on. It's been a while, but I think my largest tube will handle up to 16x20 or two 8x10.

 

[Tony Egan]

What size negatives are you planning to enlarge to 16x20? Have you thought about why you want to print this big? I don't want to dissuade you if this is a big part of your vision for you photography but for me much of the beauty of B&W photography is in the delicacy of the detail and tonal scale produced. I think I would spend a lot more time practicing this in 8x10 or 11x14 before jumping into 16x20.

In my first year of doing my own development I had the same urge and I got three large plastic trays cheaply from some kind of industrial supplies store. I think they were for displaying fish on ice or something like that. Anyway, I burned through 10 sheets of 16x20 one night and came out with one print I was barely satisfied with (and have become less happy about as each year passes.) 25 years later I have never used the trays again.

Going broke is usually temporary but don't get broken-hearted about your photography by trying to do too much too soon! I recommend saving up and finding a really good fine printing course to do about a year after you start doing your own printing.

 

[Monophoto]

Yes, it is possible to use trays the same size as the print, although it's certainly more convenient if the trays are a bit oversized.

Practically, you probably want to have a collection of tray sizes to work with. In reality, I suspect you will find that not all of your prints will be the largest that you are able to make. Larger trays use more chemicals, and are exponentially more of a PITA to work with (cleaning after use, etc).

There are two considerations involved in the question you asked about the depth of solution in a tray. Its actually not absolutely necessary that there be enough chemical to completely submerge the print - you can use a smaller amount, and with continuous agitation, still fully develop prints. In fact, that is exactly what happens with processing drums (Unicolor, Beseler, etc).

But you need to understand that the smaller the quantity of chemical, the faster it will become exhausted. With drum processing, chemicals are completely exhausted after each print, but you generally want to avoid that when using trays. If you are planning a long printing sessions, having more chemicals in the trays means that you won't have to stop to replace the chemicals.

I normally use 11x14 trays, with about a litre of solution in each. That's enough for a typical 3-hour printing session, and provides a convenient depth of about 1/2".

There are different fixing sequences Just like boxers versus briefs - its your choice. Some people like the two bath approach with sodium thiosulfate fixer. Some people like Ilford's rapid approach using 'film strength' ammonium thiosulfate. Some people use fixer to exhaustion, while others dump it at the end of each session.

One thing to consider with fixer - in some places, fixer is viewed as hazardous waste and there are regulations governing how it can be disposed of. In addition to being aware of those rules, you also need to remember that if you dispose of fixer as a one shot, you will have more fixer to dispose of than if you use it to exhaustion. So it makes sense to try to get as much use as you can - without letting it become fully exhausted because exhausted fixer is harder to remove from finished prints.

Standardizing on one set of chemicals makes sense. And for me one of the major factors is what can I purchase locally. I have standardized on HC110 as my film developer. I use dilution B for rolls, and dilution H for sheets. It's relatively inexpensive, has a very long shelf life, mixes easily (I really prefer to mix from liquid concentrates rather than powders), and produces consistent results.

I'm currently using Sprint ammonium thiosulfate fixer for both films and papers. Likewise Sprint stop and hypoclear. I am using Ilford MG print developer - a gallon jug lasts a long time!

 

[bdial]

I agree with the recommendations to slow down a little. If you spend some time learning to print 8x10s well, you'll save money in all kinds of ways when you're ready to go big.
Big prints are truly impressive, but not so many negatives are up to that much enlargement, especially from 35mm.
Get some 11x14 trays, and a box of 8x10, when you're ready another one, get it, plus a 10 or 20 sheet pack of 11x14.
By the time you finish that, you will have most of the skills to make a large print, and you'll know what negatives may work at 16x20. And you will have enough money to get the equipment to do it.

 

[brian steinberger]

I agree with the recommendations to slow down a little. If you spend some time learning to print 8x10s well, you'll save money in all kinds of ways when you're ready to go big.
Big prints are truly impressive, but not so many negatives are up to that much enlargement, especially from 35mm.
Get some 11x14 trays, and a box of 8x10, when you're ready another one, get it, plus a 10 or 20 sheet pack of 11x14.
By the time you finish that, you will have most of the skills to make a large print, and you'll know what negatives may work at 16x20. And you will have enough money to get the equipment to do it.

Agreed. When I first started out my darkroom, I planned everything to be able to print 16x20. I figured that my smaller size prints would be 8x10 or so on 11x14 paper. Man was I wrong!! My largest prints now are on 11x14 paper and are far and few between. I can't even remember the last time I printed on 11x14 paper. I've even started printing 4x5.5" and 4x6" on 5x7 paper... gorgeous little prints! And 5x7 paper is very inexpensive.

As far as trays, Paterson as recommended above are perfect and cheap. I recommend the 12x16 trays. They work perfect for 11x14 paper and will work for 8x10 as well. 1 liter of solution is perfect for this size tray. I use LPD alot for paper developer. It's very inexpensive when diluted 1:3 or 1:4 and lasts forever. For film developer, if you're looking to save money go with Pyrocat-HD, Rodinal, or HC-110 and use all one-shot.

Good luck with everything. If you have any questions you can always send any of us a PM. Have fun!

 

[MattKing]

Two weeks ago I went into a Daiso (sp?) store in Bellingham, Washington USA and found plastic kitchen trays large enough to process a few 8x10s for $1.50 each. And they stack together to save space between sessions. I bought 5.

My answer is, well you may want to look for 16x20 trays, I'd suggest buying smaller trays for use when you aren't printing that large. You will probably use them the majority of the time.

I don't have a permanent darkroom, so for 16x20s I'll use a tube.

Good luck, and have fun.

Matt

 

[psychorobotape]

Great guys! Wonderful advice as usual! You all are right, I've decided to buy 4 11x14 (developer, stop, fixer, water bath) for the darkroom and a 16x20 to use as a washer in my bathtub. That way if i decide to upgrade i'll have a 16x20 already. Those patersons are cheap too. I was distressed earlier about sleeping through the ending time on an ebay auction for 4 18x22 trays but now I'm glad I did.

Another silly question: Is it safe to only have two tongs here? One for dev/stop/fix and one for the two water baths?

 

[srs5694]

Another silly question: Is it safe to only have two tongs here? One for dev/stop/fix and one for the two water baths?

The usual advice is to use separate tongs for each bath. The most critical non-mixer is developer with stop bath -- you don't want the stop bath to get onto the developer tong, and from there into the developer. The reason is that the acid in the stop bath will disrupt the pH of the developer and ruin it. As a practical matter, I'm not sure this would really be a big problem, particularly with large solution volumes and if you discard your developer after each session, but I've never tested it. In theory, cross-contamination between stop bath and fixer shouldn't be as important, at least not if you use acid stop and acid fixer. If you use an alkaline fixer, you should probably use water as a stop bath to keep carried-over solution from disrupting the pH of the fixer.

 

[srs5694]

Also, I plan on developing primarliy ilford films at first (delta 100/400/3200, pan f, maybe a roll of tmax too). I'm currently researching what developer/stop/fixers to use. Does anyone have any sugesstions? I would like to use the same combo for all the films if possible and stick to something relatively cheap for now.

First, if you're just starting out, I recommend you cut back your list of films. You'll learn more quickly if you use just one or two films than if you use five. If something goes wrong with a roll, you won't be wondering if it's because it's a different type of film than you've used before. You'll also be better able to judge the effects of changes in your procedure, if you decide to implement them to overcome problems.

Second, I recommend picking a popular general-purpose developer to start with. Kodak D-76/Ilford ID-11 (they're more-or-less the same thing), Kodak XTOL, Kodak HC-110, and Agfa Rodinal all spring to mind as fitting the bill, although Rodinal is a bit less general-purpose and is better suited for slower films. I'm sure other people would recommend other developers and/or remove some of mine from their own lists. IMHO, that's unimportant; select any developer from anybody's "popular and general-purpose" list and you should be OK. The ones to avoid are the really obscure and specialized ones.

 

[psychorobotape]

more great advice! Yes I probably should start with fewer films, I hadn't thought about it like that. I've been leaning towards d-76 to start out with...

 

[Ed Sukach]

...But you need to understand that the smaller the quantity of chemical, the faster it will become exhausted. With drum processing, chemicals are completely exhausted after each print, but you generally want to avoid that when using trays.

I really do NOT want to "nit-pic", but this, while a valid consideration, is not entirely true. Chemistry used in rotary process is NOT exhausted immediately, there is a "life" and the possibility of replenishment.

One thing to consider with fixer - in some places, fixer is viewed as hazardous waste and there are regulations governing how it can be disposed of. In addition to being aware of those rules, you also need to remember that if you dispose of fixer as a one shot, you will have more fixer to dispose of than if you use it to exhaustion.

Again - not entirely ... Fixer itself is not "hazardous" ... the dissolved silver contained in used fixer is the question. I know of no viable test method to measure silver content of used fixer, so for the moment we have to assume "maximum" levels of silver. I can assure you that the silver content of one liter of fixer, used "one-shot", will not be much.

This topic has been WELL beaten in another thread ... it is probably best to go there. Get a firm hold on your socks.

 

[Ian Grant]

I know of no viable test method to measure silver content of used fixer,

.

Silver test papers work very well. While not highly accurate they are good enough for general use.

Ian

 

[Black Dog]

I used to think I'd want to make bigger and bigger prints.....now I've decided to ONLY shoot LF (mainly 8x10) and ONLY make contact prints, unless there's a specific look/feel that I can achieve by using something else. Developer wise, Acutol (med/slow),Aculux (fast), DDX, dilute perceptol and any tanning/staining dev will do you very nicely -I particularly recommend Fp4+ in PCAT HD/PMK or Acutol,HP5 + (first 2 plus Aculux and Perceptol) and Delta 3200 in DDX (for speed) or PCAT HD semi stand (1930s grain but 1930s tones).

BTW, Presycycol and Exactol Lux/Dixactol also great with Ilford films up to ISO 400.

 

[Dave Miller]

Excuse me for reducing a long post, but your statement contained in this part is inaccurate and misleading, which I'm sure was not intended.

Snip
But you need to understand that the smaller the quantity of chemical, the faster it will become exhausted. With drum processing, chemicals are completely exhausted after each print, but you generally want to avoid that when using trays. If you are planning a long printing sessions, having more chemicals in the trays means that you won't have to stop to replace the chemicals.

For prints up to 10x8 I use orbital tray processing, whilst for larger prints up to 24x30 I use processing drums. My chemicals are reused on a replenishment basis, and only discarded at the end of a printing session. A 10x8 r/c print will absorb about 10ml from the 120ml I normally start with, whilst fibre will take about 15ml with it to the next stage. For 12x16 the carry over increases to about 25ml. The fluid is topped up every 3rd or 4th print back to it's original level to maintain paper coverage. I employ a water wash between each stage to reduce cross contamination as much as possible, and a double fixer bath for fibre prints.

I hope that adds clarification to the discussion.

 

[pentaxuser]

Unless you know your skin to be particularly sensitive to chems, then I'd consider not bothering with tongs, if you are looking to save money. Before I had a darkroom I attended the equivalent of a 40 day college course with 20other students. There were tongs but all quickly reverted to using their hands when moving prints from one tray to the next. In the equivalent of 1600 student days attendance, not one of us had a problem with his skin.

Of course 8 hours per day and 5 days a week with your hands in chems,as it would be if it was a business, might be different but I don't think this describes what you will be doing.

pentaxuser

 

[Akki14]

Unless you know your skin to be particularly sensitive to chems, then I'd consider not bothering with tongs, if you are looking to save money. Before I had a darkroom I attended the equivalent of a 40 day college course with 20other students. There were tongs but all quickly reverted to using their hands when moving prints from one tray to the next. In the equivalent of 1600 student days attendance, not one of us had a problem with his skin.

Of course 8 hours per day and 5 days a week with your hands in chems,as it would be if it was a business, might be different but I don't think this describes what you will be doing.

pentaxuser

Or just buy a pair of washing up gloves. The Marigold brand ones have a nitrile coating and are much more comfortable and easy to take on/off compared to disposible gloves.

 

[nworth]

What is usually called a 16X20 tray is really bigger than 16X20 (about 18X22). Yes, that is big enough to handle a 16X20 print. The trays take about a gallon of chemicals. Handling a piece of heavy, wet, slippery paper that size can be a problem, but most people don't have too much trouble after a little practice. I don't have room enough in my darkroom for trays that big, so I use tubes. They work well and easily, but they are not as exciting. You will probably want to buy additional trays for smaller prints. A set for 11X14 (which take 1/2 gallon) and a set for 8X10 (which take a liter) makes sense. They're cheap and not that hard to store. You can use bigger trays for small prints, but why waste the chemistry if you are only making small prints in the current session?

As for film developers, there is no magic answer. Some thoughts for choosing: Will you be mixing your own or buying a commercial product? Find something that has a good track record with lots of other people (e.g. HC-110, D-76, Rodinal, PMK, etc.). Find something that will be available for a long time in the future (for commercial products that means a big, stable company). Find something that is easy to mix and easy to use. Do the keeping qualities of the stock solution meet your requirements? Is the smallest package available small enough so that you will use up the developer before you have to throw it out?