Developing Neopan 400 expired 2001

[altair]

Hi all. I've just bought my 1st B&W development kit yesterday, developer is LC29 and fixer is Ilford's Rapid Fixer. I have a roll of Neopan 400 handy, but it expired in 2001. A friend gave it to me, so I don't know the conditions it was stored in. So, sometime in the next few days, I have a mind to go out & shoot it with my Spotmatic, really excited to develop it myself.

I plan to pull the film and rate it at ASA 200. Digitaltruth's dev chart recommends 8 minutes with a dilution of 1/29 of LC29. My question is: since I plan to pull the film to ASA 200, do I half the dev time to 4 mins or do I double it? Sorry but I'm really very new to all this developing stuff.

Thanks in advance!

P.S: Or..since the film is expired, is it better to 'push' it instead of pull it? I really have no idea.

 

[Usagi]

The B/W films tolerates expiration pretty well. 2001 is not a problem for a normal development.
If the film has stored at really hot circumstances, then it could be fogged but I don't think that pulling helps in that case.

 

[Athiril]

Pulling only helps separating from fog if you've exposed over box speed.

If a film has a higher fog level, pushing it will only increase the apparent fog, as the fog to exposure ratio is closer together.

'Overexposing', ie: Expose at EI200, or 100, or 50 etc, and pull to match will separate that ratio and therefore have lower apparent fog level.

You're exposing the film for longer or at higher intensity, you use a shorter development time, however it is not half.

Based upon the recommendation of 8 minutes for 400, I would go with 7 minutes for 200, which is also the time I get from extrapolating the LC29 400 time to 200 by comparing several other developers that have both 400 and 200 times listed (all seem to give 6.8 to 7 min based upon that extrapolation).

 

[wogster]

Hi all. I've just bought my 1st B&W development kit yesterday, developer is LC29 and fixer is Ilford's Rapid Fixer. I have a roll of Neopan 400 handy, but it expired in 2001. A friend gave it to me, so I don't know the conditions it was stored in. So, sometime in the next few days, I have a mind to go out & shoot it with my Spotmatic, really excited to develop it myself.

I plan to pull the film and rate it at ASA 200. Digitaltruth's dev chart recommends 8 minutes with a dilution of 1/29 of LC29. My question is: since I plan to pull the film to ASA 200, do I half the dev time to 4 mins or do I double it? Sorry but I'm really very new to all this developing stuff.

Thanks in advance!

P.S: Or..since the film is expired, is it better to 'push' it instead of pull it? I really have no idea.

For your first few rolls processing, your best to eliminate as many variables as possible. Buy some fresh Ilford film, shoot at box speed, process following the times in the instructions from Ilford, process at 20℃/68℉. The reasons here is that you eliminate as many variables as possible.

Now as to your roll of Neopan, developing time and pushing/pulling do not have a linear relationship, different film and developer combinations can require different variations. Although you can project the required time from other films with the same developer. If you look at this chart you will see various films with different times and EI ratings. You will notice for Delta 400 that they recommend 11½ minutes at EI 400 and 8½ minutes at EI 200, far more then half.

Since you only have one roll, expose at EI200, and process for the normal (EI400) time, B&W films tend to tolerate a little over exposure quite well, and the images will be better able to cut through the base fog. At worst the negatives will be a little denser then normal, at least you will be able to tell from comparing to your other films.

This is the kind of roll you use to shoot unimportant stuff, if it turns out, good, if it doesn't you have not lost anything important. I would probably use it to exercise a camera I don't use often.

 

[altair]

Thanks for the reply all. For now, I've decided to stash the Neopan and go for a fresh brick of Lucky 100's I just got instead. Have finished exposing the 1st roll and will develop it tonight when the temps are cooler.

@Athiril: I'll keep the times you've given in mind when I do develop that Neopan..thanks a lot! So for expired films, you're saying that if you push it and develop it accordingly, you'll get more fog? While on the other hand, if you pull it and develop it accordingly, you'll get less fog. Do I understand that correctly?

@wogster: Yup. your reply is what made me ditch the expired Neopan. Your recommendation is excellent, I'll take it to heart. However, I have one question..if I expose the Neopan 400 at EI200, then develop for 400, will that still be considered as pull processing or...not?

 

[wogster]

Thanks for the reply all. For now, I've decided to stash the Neopan and go for a fresh brick of Lucky 100's I just got instead. Have finished exposing the 1st roll and will develop it tonight when the temps are cooler.

@Athiril: I'll keep the times you've given in mind when I do develop that Neopan..thanks a lot! So for expired films, you're saying that if you push it and develop it accordingly, you'll get more fog? While on the other hand, if you pull it and develop it accordingly, you'll get less fog. Do I understand that correctly?

@wogster: Yup. your reply is what made me ditch the expired Neopan. Your recommendation is excellent, I'll take it to heart. However, I have one question..if I expose the Neopan 400 at EI200, then develop for 400, will that still be considered as pull processing or...not?

No, it isn't pull processing, because your using the original processing times. Your intentionally over exposing it to help cut through the base fog. The real issue, if you had say a brick of it, you could waste a few rolls fine tuning it. Since you have only one roll, the idea is to get a printable result from it without experimenting, so that's why I suggested what I did.

Personally, I would either use it to exercise a camera, or since your a newbie, use it as a training film to get down the process of loading the developing reel correctly. Doing it the first couple of times with the lights on and watching what your doing can be helpful. You basically take the film and load it on the reel, then, without processing it, you take it off and do it again, when you are comfortable, you do it again with the lights off, a couple of times. Once your sure, you can load a real film and not be as nervous about it.

 

[BetterSense]

2001 isn't that old really. But exposing at 200 isn't a bad idea anyway; a stop of extra exposure never hurt anyone. I would expose it at 200 and develop normally, at least for the first roll or two. Then, if you have some problem with how the negatives are printing, adjust your exposure and development time.

 

[altair]

@wogster: Ok, thank you very much. I've just successfully developed my 1st roll of Lucky 100 not half an hour ago...it feels good! So, let me get this straight, if I expose the Neopan 400 at EI200, then process it at EI400, it would still be considered as normal processing..it's just that I am overexposing the film..correct? Pull processing is whereby I expose the film at EI200, then process it at EI200...right? Under what circumstances would one push/pull a film?

@BetterSense: Right on, I normally overexpose my negatives too. Thanks for the tip!

 

[wogster]

@wogster: Ok, thank you very much. I've just successfully developed my 1st roll of Lucky 100 not half an hour ago...it feels good! So, let me get this straight, if I expose the Neopan 400 at EI200, then process it at EI400, it would still be considered as normal processing..it's just that I am overexposing the film..correct? Pull processing is whereby I expose the film at EI200, then process it at EI200...right? Under what circumstances would one push/pull a film?

@BetterSense: Right on, I normally overexpose my negatives too. Thanks for the tip!

Yes, pull processing and push processing are done at the developing stage, that's why it's called pull processing.

If you like box speed and you want to use it at another speed, then you would pull or push to compensate. Now in either case, it's never quite the same, here is an experiment.



Take a roll of the lucky film, take a whole roll of the same image, first one stop under, next stop at speed, next one stop over. Repeat the cycle over and over, it can be helpful to use a white board or paper in the images to show which are which. If you want a neat effect, use half stop intervals.

Now cut the film into 3 equal length strips. Put two strips into a light proof container. Process the first one at the normal time. Process the second pushed one stop and the third, pulled one stop.

Now compare them, and you will see what pulling and pushing do for you. Pushing gives more speed, often the contrast is increased and so is grain. Pulling cuts the speed, usually gives less contrast and less grain. It's actually quite common to like one speed and a different process, for example lots of people like one stop over at the regular time.

 

[altair]

Ok, wogster. I think now I got it. Thanks so much!