developing negs only ... what do i need?

John Kasaian · Jan 11, 2008

(one more thought) Jugs for storing your chemicals! Wine jugs work nicely if you can find black plastic tops that fit (the metal ones rust) and relabel them so you won't mistake the D-76 for a rather unpretentious chardonnay from the San Joaquin Valley.

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 11, 2008

J Brunner, your video is fantastic, man. It really ... floats my boat.

How do you keep the water temp in your big tub of water the same throughout the whole process? Or is that not necessary because it's a lot of liquid so it doesn't change?

What kind of drying environment is ideal? Low moisture? And how long to dry?

Bob F. · Jan 11, 2008

"Wash Aid" : not necessary for film as the fixer washes out easily.

A bottle-opener can do double-duty to lever off the top of a 35mm cassette, though you can get purpose made openers. I prefer to lever the top off the can rather than pull the film through the light-trap and run the (small) extra risk of a scratch.

If you can black-out a bathroom that would be ideal as the extra elbow-room and freedom of action over using a changing bag is very worthwhile.

You might want to add wetting agent to your list. A small amount in a final soak (preferably with distilled water, but that's a belt-and-braces approach) will greatly reduce the chances of drying marks. Don't let it evaporate dry on plastic reels and tanks as it can allegedly build up a residue over time.

Hanging film to dry in a shower cubicle or over the bath is a good place as the humidity in the bathroom helps keep the dust down (but don't keep stirring up the dust by opening the door). Dust is your worst enemy when it comes to drying film. At normal room temperatures it will take a couple of hours at least to completely dry. I tend to leave it twice as long as I think it needs...

Have fun, Bob.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jan 12, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
-Fixer (Any brand will do I'm guessing?)

Not necessarily. If you go buy in a brick and mortar store, you are more likely to find rapid fixers, with or without hardeners. Take a non-hardened fixer like the one sold by Ilford. Kodak makes three kinds of fixer: powder (it's not rapid, so don't bother using it with film), Kodafix (contains hardener, avoid for now), and a liquid kind that comes in A and B solution, one of which is the hardener. Don't use the hardener solution, and you're fine.

bessa_L_R3a said:
-Wash Aid (essential or not essential?)

Not essential. Useful, but not essential. As long as you stick to using fresh fixer and wash properly, you don't need wash aid.

bessa_L_R3a said:
-Some sort of tub to fill with water at desired temp to keep tank in during development (like a Bain Marie)

Kind of overkill. Your processing temperature will not change enough during the few minutes you agitate the developer to warrant temp control on the tank. On the other hand, if you plan to do C41 or E6 later, well, this could be an investment that will pay down the road.

bessa_L_R3a said:
Am I missing anything essential?

I am partial to Edwal's Hypo-Check or other similar solutions. It's a test solution you use to verify your fixer's strength. Put a few drops in fixer, and it will precipitates if your fixer is exhausted. It's useful when you are printing (put a few drops after every X prints to check), or when you reuse fixer.

Don't forget Photo-Flo and distilled water for the final rinse.

If you can have some humidity in the room where you dry film, it will help avoid curling (not the Canadian sport!). In the shower, for instance. You open up hot water for a minute or two to build up some humidity, then hang the film, and close the door. Your film will dry slowly. I leave mine overnight because I develop in the evening, but it takes only a few hours.

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 12, 2008

In JBrunner's video, (as a point of reference), I'm not sure it's clear how many minutes he has the film in chemicals (not including the developer). How long do you have to do your pre-wash, fixer, post wash, wetting, etc ... or does it say all that on the boxes?

JBrunner · Jan 12, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
J Brunner, your video is fantastic, man. It really ... floats my boat.

How do you keep the water temp in your big tub of water the same throughout the whole process? Or is that not necessary because it's a lot of liquid so it doesn't change?

What kind of drying environment is ideal? Low moisture? And how long to dry?

The tray of water is simply used to bring the chems up to temp, so I just fill it with warm water. My basement in winter sits at about 65f so I just get the water adjusted to run about 72f, fill the tray, and put in the chems. By experience, I know that in my tray, in my basement, in the winter, when the chems get up to 68f the water in the tray has just about equalized, and things stay around 68 long enough for me to get things done. A degree difference over the course of development won't make a huge difference with B&W. The biggest trick is just to do the same thing every time, so if your development starts at 70 and ends at 68, just try for that to be a consistent part of the process. Consistency is control, and lack of consistency, and introduction of variables is invariably (hehe) why some persons think it is unpredictable alchemy.

IOS · Jan 12, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
In JBrunner's video, (as a point of reference), I'm not sure it's clear how many minutes he has the film in chemicals (not including the developer). How long do you have to do your pre-wash, fixer, post wash, wetting, etc ... or does it say all that on the boxes?

Each film has a different developing time, you can find a good list of times at digitaltruth.com. You can start out with only developing, stopbath, fixer and then rinse. I just started using a hypo wash after the fixing and dont think that i realy need to use the hypo wash but i cuts down on the rinse time. The info on the film boxes wont give you the developing time for other developers. Fix for 5 to 10 minutes, stop bath 30sec , rinse 30 minutes but with the hypowash you can cut the rinse time down to 5 minutes. Hypo wash 1 to 2 minutes.
Jim

srs5694 · Jan 12, 2008

IOS said:
Fix for 5 to 10 minutes

This is an appropriate fix time for non-rapid (sodium thiosulfate) fixers, but if you use a rapid (ammonium thiosulfate) fixer, 2 minutes is probably closer to the mark. Two rules of thumb for fixing time:

Follow the instructions on the product packaging. (This applies to all other chemicals, too.)
Cut off a small piece of film (say, the leader that you have to cut off from 35mm film to load it in most tanks), dunk it in the fixer (in ordinary light and without developing it), and time how long it takes to clear. Fix for twice that time (some people say three times as long for T-grain films).

I generally use the longer of these two times. For instance, if the fixer instructions say to fix for 2 minutes but the film clears after 30 seconds, I fix for 2 minutes. When you perform the snip test (method #2 above), you should discard the fixer after the film clearing time doubles -- so if it starts out at 30 seconds, discard the fixer once the clearing time reaches 60 seconds. The product instructions should also specify capacity (x 36-exposure 35mm rolls per liter). Note also that the clearing time can vary from one film to another, so you should be sure to use a snip of whatever film you're actually processing, not a snip from a roll of another type of film.

An unrelated piece of advice: You might want to start out with chemicals all from a single company -- for instance, all Ilford or all Kodak. The reason is twofold: First, you're less likely to be confused by conflicting instructions. Second, if something goes wrong, using a single supplier minimizes the opportunities for that company to point its finger at another company's products should you call for help. As you gain experience, these issues become less important, so mixing and matching suppliers becomes more reasonable.

JBrunner · Jan 12, 2008

IOS;571779Fix for 5 to 10 minutes said:
10 minutes of fix time is approaching the threshold for altering the density of your negatives. Test the time to clear a piece of film in your fix, and double it.

IOS · Jan 12, 2008

JBrunner said:
10 minutes of fix time is approaching the threshold for altering the density of your negatives. Test the time to clear a piece of film in your fix, and double it.

I always fix film for 7 minutes no matter what film it is. I never wanted to push it to the max or settle for the fastest so i figured 7 minutes would be good and safe.

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 12, 2008

thanks again,

i'm going to buy all the gear tomorrow and report back on results. I'll just be conservative and go with the times indicated on packaging for all chems.

R.

JBrunner · Jan 12, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
In JBrunner's video, (as a point of reference), I'm not sure it's clear how many minutes he has the film in chemicals (not including the developer). How long do you have to do your pre-wash, fixer, post wash, wetting, etc ... or does it say all that on the boxes?

The exact time of development was left out because it varies with the particular film/developer combination. You may find times for common film/developer combos in product documents. If I am trying something new, and just winging it, to check out if I want to invest time and effort into a film or developer, I use The Massive Development Chart at DigitalTruth for a start time. The information is in most cases, very reliable.

Eventually you may want to determine your own personal film speeds and development times, for a particular film/developer/paper. When you feel confident and consistent, that is the next step, and is ultimately how I determine all exposure and processing regimen for the film/developer/paper combinations I use.

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 13, 2008

Ok, I just got back from Adorama in Manhattan and I bought all the stuff and consulted with the processing guy in the film department. He told me I don't need a thermometer and can do everything at room temperature, but that flies in the face it seems with what all of you guys have said, that I should try to keep temp. constant. So I'm going to use Jason Brunner's method of keeping everything in a water bath.

Digital truth tells me that if I'm developing Neopan 400 in HC-110 I need to use Dilution B formula and develop for 5 minutes at 20 Celsius. On the concentrate bottle of HC 110 it says Working Dilution B is 1 part stock solution to 7 parts water.

So this means once I get my stock solution (I have no idea how to do this because I'm a math idiot) I take, say, 1 cup of it and mix it with 7 cups of water and the resulting mixture is what I use to develop?

And the guy at the store said I can re-use the developer. How many times can I re-use it?

Please tell me I'm on the right track here ...

Good news: I figured out how to load my reels correctly in the dark!

TheTrailTog · Jan 13, 2008

Hmmm, I don't know about not needing to know temperature. Room temps can vary and using HC110 this can mean several minutes difference in developing times. I find the easiest thing to do is mix working solution for HC110. Just do 1 oz of HC110 per quart for dilution B or 1/2 oz for dilution H. I have never tried reusing it. It lasts a LONG time. I got about 50 rolls out of one bottle using both dilutions and that was mostly shotting 120. Neopan and HC110 is my usual combo. let me know if you have any questions.

Here's you development times for diltuion B. Double them for dilution H:

-----------------------18C/64F----------20C/68F----------22C/72F----------24C/75F----------26C/79F
ISO 400-------------------6----------------5---------------4 1/4-------------3 1/2---------------3

JBrunner · Jan 13, 2008

Here are some small pieces of advice. Other people do things other ways, of course, and nobody is really right or wrong.

HC110- Don't bother mixing the intermediate working solution, its much easier to mix it in small quantities direct from the bottle.

Here is a web page with good hc110 info:

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

And also a handy direct dilution chart from Bob Fowler:

http://mysite.verizon.net/fowler/photo/hc110.htm

Use it one shot, meaning mix up your developer, use it, and dump it. You can reuse it and even replenish it but for the small cost, using it one shot assures the utimate in consistency.

Same for the temperature thing- you can process at "room temperature" and get along ok, OTO you can make sure your temperatures are as consistent as you can make them, and be that much more in control of your process. You can get by, because there is some forgiveness inherent to the technology, but if you are looking to really dominate your process, and eventually turn out the finest prints possible, you gotta grab it by the pistachios, and consistent control is your grip.

IOS · Jan 13, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
Ok, I just got back from Adorama in Manhattan and I bought all the stuff and consulted with the processing guy in the film department. He told me I don't need a thermometer and can do everything at room temperature, but that flies in the face it seems with what all of you guys have said, that I should try to keep temp. constant. So I'm going to use Jason Brunner's method of keeping everything in a water bath.

Digital truth tells me that if I'm developing Neopan 400 in HC-110 I need to use Dilution B formula and develop for 5 minutes at 20 Celsius. On the concentrate bottle of HC 110 it says Working Dilution B is 1 part stock solution to 7 parts water.

So this means once I get my stock solution (I have no idea how to do this because I'm a math idiot) I take, say, 1 cup of it and mix it with 7 cups of water and the resulting mixture is what I use to develop?

And the guy at the store said I can re-use the developer. How many times can I re-use it?

Please tell me I'm on the right track here ...

Good news: I figured out how to load my reels correctly in the dark!

NO,NO,NO, !!!!!!!!!!!! Dont mix 1 to 7 out of the bottle !!! The 1 to 7 is after you make the stock sol !!! If you want dulB mix 1/2 ounce of the syrup with 15 ounces of water. Dul b is after you made the first mix. If you want to make a small amount of developer so you dont waste it mix it with the 1/2 ounce of syrup from the bottle with 15 ounces of water, that will give you enough for a single roll of 35mm in a single roll tank. The person that gave you the info on the temp is a "nut case" because dev time matters on the temp of the water.

Jim

IOS · Jan 13, 2008

Dul B straight from the syrup is 1-30 which will give you 31 ounces of developer, so cut that in half for a single roll. I always dump it after im done.

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 13, 2008

JBrunner said:
Here is a web page with good hc110 info:

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

thanks Jason, this clears up a lot!!

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 13, 2008

IOS said:
Dul B straight from the syrup is 1-30 which will give you 31 ounces of developer, so cut that in half for a single roll. I always dump it after im done.

I'm getting dizzy ... Not understanding ..

I have the mini plastic tank with two reels (35mm) and I plan on doing two reels at a time, full capacity, is that 31 ounces? I don't know how much liquid fits in the tank because it doesn't say.

Ok, it says 18.8 mL for a 600 mL tank which is the one I assume I have, so I need to multiply 18.8 mL by 30? That's 564 mL so this is enough?

IOS · Jan 13, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
I'm getting dizzy ... Not understanding ..

I have the mini plastic tank with two reels (35mm) and I plan on doing two reels at a time, full capacity, is that 31 ounces? I don't know how much liquid fits in the tank because it doesn't say.

The bottom of my tanks state the ounces. I have a 9 ounce tank and a 16 ounce jobo tank. Look at the bottom of the tank or the box i came in.

TheTrailTog · Jan 13, 2008

Check your tank for amount needed. Did you end up getting the Patterson? I get 3 rolls per quart of developer.

JBrunner · Jan 13, 2008

The easiest way to determine the capacity of your tank if it doesn't say, is to fill it with water until it covers the reel, or reels, and then dump the water in to a graduate, and measure how much.

Look at Bob's dilution chart- he's done all the math for us.

If your tank is indeed 600ml, and you want to use Dil B you would mix 18.75 ml of syrup with 581.25 ml of water. You wont get it that exact of course, but something around 20ml to 580ml is fine, as long as you do it consistantly.

IOS · Jan 13, 2008

I stand corrected ! The actual measurement is 1/2 ounce of syrup to 15.5 ounces of water. I use 1/2 to 15 but the correct is 1/2 to 15.5. Good luck ! after one or 2 times you will be a pro !

Jim

bessa_L_R3a · Jan 13, 2008

Hi,

I ended up getting an AP, not for any particular reason, sorry about not getting Patterson, Xia_Ke

I looked on the bottom, and of course there it is: 2 x 135 / 126 = 650 cc

Are CC's the same as mL's? Can you tell I basically failed chemistry in high school AND in college? (I was good at bio, though)

But now that I think about it, it's more important that I get the developer solution correct instead of trying to figure out what the exact proportions have to be for the tank ...

So my tank is 650 mL, right?

I did buy an accordian style storage bottle that says QT on it, so I'm guessing that is 1 QT. If someone can tell me how to calculate the Dilution B for that amount, then I think I'll be ok. Who is Bob? What's his website?

Jason, thanks for that earlier calculation, sorry for not knowing exactly what it was.

JBrunner · Jan 13, 2008

bessa_L_R3a said:
Hi,

I Who is Bob? What's his website?

Jason, thanks for that earlier calculation, sorry for not knowing exactly what it was.

Bob Fowler.
http://mysite.verizon.net/fowler/photo/hc110.htm

developing negs only ... what do i need?

John Kasaian

bessa_L_R3a

Bob F.

Michel Hardy-Vallée

Membership Council

bessa_L_R3a

JBrunner

Moderator

IOS

srs5694

JBrunner

Moderator

IOS

bessa_L_R3a

JBrunner

Moderator

bessa_L_R3a

TheTrailTog

JBrunner

Moderator

IOS

IOS

bessa_L_R3a

bessa_L_R3a

IOS

TheTrailTog

JBrunner

Moderator

IOS

bessa_L_R3a

JBrunner

Moderator

developing negs only ... what do i need?

Membership Council

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency