Developing Mural Prints

Sirius Glass · Jul 29, 2014

For 30"x40" [76.2 cm x 101.6 cm] and larger I use http://www.goldencolor.com/ where they can do large prints and murals with optics only, no digital work. There darkroom has horizontal enlargers with a vacuum wall that hold the paper flat against it. They have printed 60"x60" [152.4cm x 152.4 cm]prints from a 35mm negative for me.

DREW WILEY · Jul 29, 2014

You could take a cell phone shot to any outdoor advertising company and they could turn it into a billboard somebody could see half a mile
away.

MartinP · Jul 29, 2014

And the surprising thing for me about billboards (in the "old days" at least) was the low overall resolution needed. The "dots" are pretty huge !

Actually, I have just recalled that I have seen adverts here (NL) for turning digital photos in to wallpaper. Not for use on a computer-screen, but a series of 30" wide rolls for an indoor wall! I haven't seen the final output quality of that product, but it is certainly digitally printed in some way and keeping the joins straight might get annoying very quickly.

DREW WILEY · Jul 30, 2014

Have you ever noticed how abominably unsharp most of these giant "art" prints are? Then they refer to "normal viewing distance". Yeah...
from half a mile away, just like a billboard. But if you want to splice big fiber prints into a single image, the technique is a lot like hanging
wallpaper, just fussier. But most wallpaper patterns are more interesting than a lot of these big prints nowadays.

chrisaisenbrey · Jul 30, 2014

Deville is offering a system to develop large prints by rolling them back and forward from one roll to another. Ive found only the French version of a leaflet on their homepage.

http://www.plastique-deville.com/files/le_systeme_bobinoir.pdf

analoguey · Aug 22, 2014

MartinP said:
And the surprising thing for me about billboards (in the "old days" at least) was the low overall resolution needed. The "dots" are pretty huge !

Actually, I have just recalled that I have seen adverts here (NL) for turning digital photos in to wallpaper. Not for use on a computer-screen, but a series of 30" wide rolls for an indoor wall! I haven't seen the final output quality of that product, but it is certainly digitally printed in some way and keeping the joins straight might get annoying very quickly.

Most of the prints for adverts as well - even at 2m or so size are pretty badly done ones - I recently spotted a hideous one advertising for saris and another for jewellery - almost like no one cared how it turned out as long as it was printed to X size and put up.

countingaces · Aug 22, 2014

chrisaisenbrey said:
Deville is offering a system to develop large prints by rolling them back and forward from one roll to another. Ive found only the French version of a leaflet on their homepage.

http://www.plastique-deville.com/files/le_systeme_bobinoir.pdf

Were you able to find any more information on this system? Seems like a very good way to process prints.

countingaces · Aug 22, 2014

Ok, so I'm down to a few solutions. Due to space, huge trays (whether purchased or homemade with plywood and plastic sheeting) is out of the question. I have a hard enough time fitting 16x20 trays on my wet table. What I am considering is:

1. hand-rolling (like a scroll) the paper back and forth in wallpaper wetting trays.
2. The Deville system (more advanced, mechanical version of the wallpaper wetting trays).
3. Building a big slot processor similar to the Nova processor.

With that said, I'm a little confused as to the actual mechanics of hand-rolling. I've read numerous descriptions online, but I am a photographer and rely on visuals more than text. I can't seem to find a video anywhere, so if anyone knows where I can find some visual information to go along with the text, I'd really appreciate it.

The Deville system looks nice, however, likely very expensive, and again, there are few resources out there to deconstruct and DIY. Also, the same problem exists with the Nova Slot processor. I'd love to DIY one of these with thick acrylic or heavy plastic, but I'm struggling to wrap my mind around how the device actually works. Has anyone build their own slot processor?

Again, with building my own slot processor, I am concerned about the pressure the liquid places on the acrylic walls, and I have no drainage in my darkroom if disaster struck. What I am considering is something akin to the FOTOCELL MINI MIZER found on http://www.secondhanddarkroom.co.uk/. It looks to be exactly what I'm looking for, but much smaller. A metal container with heating element to allow for color processing and to hold all the chemical containers together in the event that disaster does strike and one of the containers collapses. Has anyone had any luck creating something like this, or has any advice to create this?

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 22, 2014

I built my own slot processor a while ago when I had a small bathroom for a darkroom. My homebrew was big enough to do 11x14 prints. I built it out of 1/4" plexiglass for the walls and 1/2" plexi for the bottom. It had one big design flaw in that I never factored in some kind of drainage system, so to dump one chemical, I had to dump them all and could not re-use them. That problem would have been easy enough to overcome with a bit more planning and experience in fabricating something with plastic. Mine was made of clear plexi, so it was not suited for color printing, but that could be solved with a simple change from clear to black. My design had no method of temperature control, but again that wasn't a problem as I was doing b/w printing at room temperature.

I currently own a Nova 16x20 vertical slot processor. The Nova has waffle-textured walls to the slots so paper doesn't stick. It also has a water jacket to the slots combined with a thermostat to keep the chemistry at working temperature. I THINK Nova made vertical processors as large as 20x24 but I could be wrong, and 16x20 was the biggest. Due to weight and physical stress issues, I don't know you would want to build a vertical slot processor bigger than 20x24 - when the 16x20 is full of chemicals and the water jacket is filled, it weighs in at something like 70 lbs, perhaps more. As annoying as the wallpaper tray thing is, if you're going bigger than 20x24, I think that's really the best way to go.

For hand-rolling, to avoid handling the paper and to avoid damaging it when wet, I'd get two wooden dowels, say 1/2" in diameter. The dowels should be at least 6 inches longer than the longest piece of paper you want to process. Every 6 to 12 inches, put a plastic clothespin. Clamp the paper on the long axis to the dowel, and repeat on the other side of the paper with the other dowel. Let the paper hang in a U between the two dowels. Rock the paper up and down in the bath. I can draw some diagrams and upload them later.

countingaces said:
Ok, so I'm down to a few solutions. Due to space, huge trays (whether purchased or homemade with plywood and plastic sheeting) is out of the question. I have a hard enough time fitting 16x20 trays on my wet table. What I am considering is:

1. hand-rolling (like a scroll) the paper back and forth in wallpaper wetting trays.
2. The Deville system (more advanced, mechanical version of the wallpaper wetting trays).
3. Building a big slot processor similar to the Nova processor.

With that said, I'm a little confused as to the actual mechanics of hand-rolling. I've read numerous descriptions online, but I am a photographer and rely on visuals more than text. I can't seem to find a video anywhere, so if anyone knows where I can find some visual information to go along with the text, I'd really appreciate it.

The Deville system looks nice, however, likely very expensive, and again, there are few resources out there to deconstruct and DIY. Also, the same problem exists with the Nova Slot processor. I'd love to DIY one of these with thick acrylic or heavy plastic, but I'm struggling to wrap my mind around how the device actually works. Has anyone build their own slot processor?

Again, with building my own slot processor, I am concerned about the pressure the liquid places on the acrylic walls, and I have no drainage in my darkroom if disaster struck. What I am considering is something akin to the FOTOCELL MINI MIZER found on http://www.secondhanddarkroom.co.uk/. It looks to be exactly what I'm looking for, but much smaller. A metal container with heating element to allow for color processing and to hold all the chemical containers together in the event that disaster does strike and one of the containers collapses. Has anyone had any luck creating something like this, or has any advice to create this?

View attachment 93303

DREW WILEY · Aug 22, 2014

Just get a big diameter of plastic drainage (culvert) pipe. Cap the ends so its floats. Instead of putting the paper inside like a drum processor,
tape it to the outside, preferably with some ribs or dimples behind to let chem onto the back too. Then roll (rotate) it in a shallow trough of chem. You could easily suspend the device with a center axle of some kind, to make it easy to move from one trough to the next. Anybody try
this method?

pdeeh · Aug 23, 2014

I doubt I'll ever make a print big enough to worry about this, but that ^ idea is simply brilliant

darkroom_rookie · Aug 23, 2014

Here's what a guy in Spain did:

[video=youtube;7gGeG2oIwrA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gGeG2oIwrA[/video]

analoguey · Aug 23, 2014

DREW WILEY said:
Just get a big diameter of plastic drainage (culvert) pipe. Cap the ends so its floats. Instead of putting the paper inside like a drum processor,
tape it to the outside, preferably with some ribs or dimples behind to let chem onto the back too. Then roll (rotate) it in a shallow trough of chem. You could easily suspend the device with a center axle of some kind, to make it easy to move from one trough to the next. Anybody try
this method?

Works well with film - so probably with paper too?
Havent printed large enough paper to try that yet.

Sent from Tap-a-talk

countingaces · Aug 23, 2014

If you know the name of the DvD please let me know. I'd love to see it. Although the roller method looks interesting and conserves space, how would one do this with RA-4?

MartinP · Aug 23, 2014

Large colour prints, or indeed almost any commercially produced ones, with RA4 materials were usually made with a roller-processor of the appropriate width. However, I don't suppose there are very many 42" Colenta machines available secondhand these days.

There was a report of someone using a caravan or trailer as a camera, with consequently huge paper positive prints, who used a section of plastic drain pipe (about 18" diameter) as a sort of pseudo drum processor. The filling and emptying was done via a screw cap on one/both ends. (Edit: Apparently I was remembering an article I had read about someone called John Chiara. He is google-able.)

countingaces · Aug 23, 2014

I've seen the John Chiara video. In fact, I'm going to hear him speak at an opening in a few weeks. Great photographer and beautiful images. I love that he is so... Inaccurate in his approach and yet so accepting of the results. I, however, am not at a point where I can accept the image for what it is and would like to be able to control the outcome rather than accept it. I'll give a search for Colenta rollers a try.

DREW WILEY · Aug 29, 2014

RA4 ???????? Are you trying to destroy your lungs? Build a proper drum proper with dedicated ventilation. But there are in fact plenty of used forty and fifty inch roller-transport out there at reasonable prices, or even downright free. That sure doesn't mean they're free to put into use! You need a LOT of chemistry and some realistic industrial power, serious drainage, maybe a permit. You can't just plug them in a wall like a toaster. I've posted all kinds of stuff on various forums on how to build big drum rigs. Do a search. Not that difficult if you understand basic plastic fabrication. Once the paper is in a light-tight drum, you can even take it outdoors for processing, like I do, to minimize your exposure to the chemical fumes. But you still need some kind of reasonably precise water bath to keep the temp of the chem bottles correct.

countingaces · Aug 29, 2014

DREW WILEY said:
RA4 ???????? Are you trying to destroy your lungs? Build a proper drum proper with dedicated ventilation. But there are in fact plenty of used forty and fifty inch roller-transport out there at reasonable prices, or even downright free. That sure doesn't mean they're free to put into use! You need a LOT of chemistry and some realistic industrial power, serious drainage, maybe a permit. You can't just plug them in a wall like a toaster. I've posted all kinds of stuff on various forums on how to build big drum rigs. Do a search. Not that difficult if you understand basic plastic fabrication. Once the paper is in a light-tight drum, you can even take it outdoors for processing, like I do, to minimize your exposure to the chemical fumes. But you still need some kind of reasonably precise water bath to keep the temp of the chem bottles correct.

Drew, you are likely right about the damage to lungs, and I thank you for your comment. I've heard of people tray developing RA4 at room temperature and thought that it would be alright to do the same with my proposed contraption. In addition, the Nova slot processors designed for RA4 are clearly on the market and I have yet to hear of someone complaining about lung damage specifically due to the design of Nova slot processors, and if there were serious complications due to chemical inhalation, I imagine Nova would change their design.

With that said, a properly designed drum processor seems like a good option not only for health reasons, but also for space conservation and chemical disposal. The roller-transport on the other hand does not seem like a good option as (from my understanding) they are designed for heavy printing whereas I am interested in making a few good big prints. You mention that you've, "posted all kinds of stuff on various forums on how to build big drum rigs." Would you mind posting a link? I have searched, but to no avail, although, admittedly, I am not the best at mining the depths of the internet.

Again, thank you for your post, and thank you in advance for the link to your advice on building large drum processors.

DREW WILEY · Aug 29, 2014

People mistake a "low odor" formula for something safe. It isn't. Then you get these morons who say they've worked with this or that for years and never been hurt. Then you don't see them for awhile, and the next time you do, their health is ruined. People also get sensitized to RA4. It doesn't bother them at all, and then all of a sudden, Wham! - they can't even be in the same building as the stuff. I know a couple commercial lab owners whose careers got ended that way, one with lung surgery. But "artistes" are like teenager smokers, and think that there's something cool in taking risks. But your prints aren't going to come out any better. More often, sloppy habits just lead to sloppy prints too. But never ever second guess whether a manufacturer has intelligently designed something or not. Plenty of idiots in that field too. In any event, these devices are intended to be used in conjunction with proper ventilation, just like all chemical procedures. I don't know if I'll
find the links myself before the holiday or not. It's hard to remember what I posted here on APUG or over on the Large Format Forum, or in
reply to numerous emails. But there are schematics online of analogous successful drums by others, mainly using large black ABS irrigation
pipe and fitting.

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 29, 2014

In my mid twenties I took a job at a photo lab. The owner installed a large B&W print processor. The acid fixer was heated and sprayed onto the prints to facilitate speedy finish times. I complained several times that the acrid air in the unventilated room was burning my eyes and throat and hurting my lungs. He said he was working on getting ventilation. A few days later I ended up in the emergency room with burnt lungs. When I returned to work wheezing the owner finally installed proper ventilation. It took years before my lungs recovered and I doubt they ever fully recovered. I should have sued that jerk.

countingaces · Aug 29, 2014

DREW WILEY said:
People mistake a "low odor" formula for something safe. It isn't. Then you get these morons who say they've worked with this or that for years and never been hurt. Then you don't see them for awhile, and the next time you do, their health is ruined. People also get sensitized to RA4. It doesn't bother them at all, and then all of a sudden, Wham! - they can't even be in the same building as the stuff. I know a couple commercial lab owners whose careers got ended that way, one with lung surgery. But "artistes" are like teenager smokers, and think that there's something cool in taking risks. But your prints aren't going to come out any better. More often, sloppy habits just lead to sloppy prints too. But never ever second guess whether a manufacturer has intelligently designed something or not. Plenty of idiots in that field too. In any event, these devices are intended to be used in conjunction with proper ventilation, just like all chemical procedures. I don't know if I'll
find the links myself before the holiday or not. It's hard to remember what I posted here on APUG or over on the Large Format Forum, or in
reply to numerous emails. But there are schematics online of analogous successful drums by others, mainly using large black ABS irrigation
pipe and fitting.

Drew, no rush on the link. I'm still very much in the information gathering stage. For reasons you have previously stated, this is not something I want to rush into. Thank you for your input and I look forward to hearing from you. In the meantime, I'll continue to hunt on both APUG and Large Format Forum for schematics. Enjoy the holiday.

countingaces · Apr 8, 2015

Hi All,

I'm back with this issue unresolved. Does anyone have any schematics to build a large drum? Again, I currently am processing in a JOBO expert drum but the 20x24 maximum size just isn't enough for me. I was thinking about removing the heating element and control unit and using it as the temperature control bath for large drums, mounting inverted furniture casters on the base of the bath, and rolling the drum by hand. The issue I have is, how the hell do you make it light tight? I can put rubber caps on the ends, but as soon as i pull them off to throw in the blix, I will blow out the print with the exposure to light. Also, the time it would take to pull of the cap, pour out the developer and pour in the blix would be too long and I'd likely over-develop the print. What's the solution here? How can I make a drum that is light-tight and allows for quick pours of chemicals and quick exiting of chemicals?

Thank you for your help.

MartinP · Apr 9, 2015

The obvious solution (pun intended) to your light exposure problem is to do the filling and emptying of the large tube in the darkroom. The rolling can then be done in daylight if the end-caps don't fall off!

Alternatively, a light proof maze of pvc sheet could be made in an end-cap for filling and emptying in the light, but the size of the inner surface and the amount of liquid required for coverage might make even development difficult. Perhaps a reservoir area at one end filled, while vertical, using a funnel and pipe then capped, lights turned on, and moved quickly to the horizontal position for rotation? Don't forget an acetic-acid stop bath too, as well as dev and blix.

Developing Mural Prints

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