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Developing film in fermented oak gall solution ...

pdeeh

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This probably sits halfway between alt process and b&w chemistry really ... thought it might be of interest, perhaps even might trigger some technical speculation by the Chymists.

Anyway ... I have been experimenting with making Iron Gall Ink for a friend. The first step is to crush some oak galls and set them to ferment in rainwater in a jar for a couple of months.

(The theory seems to be - if I am paraphrasing accurately - that the combination of hydrolysis and enzyme action from fermentation will turn some or much of the Tannic acids and Gallotannic acids in the galls to Gallic acid; the subsequent step is to add Ferrous sulfate to the mixture, which reacts with the gallic acid present to form a pigment, which is the basis of the ink. IG ink is extremely robust once on paper, and does not fade)

Now, from my (dangerously superficial) understanding of photochemistry I know that Gallic acid can be used as a toner for cyanotypes and other alt-processes, and that it is a precursor for the production of Pyrogallic acid, which (as any skoolboy kno) is a developing agent for Silver halides.

SO, thought I, let's dunk a bit of exposed 35mm leader in some of this fermenting goo for an hour, just to see what happens. Results in attachment.

Clearly something's gone on ... but of course we know that all sorts of macerated plant materials with a bit of alkali added will develop film, so there's no conclusion as to what the developing agent is here.

Anyone interested in IG ink might want to have a look at this rather beautiful little site, by the way: www.irongallink.org
 

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Google Chrome reports that the site in your link contains malware....

I'd have to go digging through my old email, but I think I have a film developer recipe somewhere that uses fermented oak galls..... my memory ( might be wrong!! ) is that it also had sodium carbonate and potassium bromide.

Edit: I want to try making gall ink too! Rusty iron nails and fermented oak galls!
 
No problems reported by any of my browsers Ned, or by AVG.
 
I get a warning also as follows...

"The site ahead contains malware"

"Attackers currently on www.irongallink.org might attempt to install dangerous programs on your computer that steal or delete your information (for example, photos, passwords, messages, and credit cards)."
 
Well I've been looking at it for months without problems.

It would be a shame if a thread about interesting chemistry got sidetracked into a list of who does and doesn't get warnings about a perfectly safe site though ...
 
You have rediscovered gallic acid, an ester of pyrogallol. The extract may stain emulsions.
 
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These Inks are very corrosive againts their paper , they eat the paper in time and after a long time , there is only scissor cut paper remains.
All the ink goes to eat paper. Museum Conservators having hard time with these inks , for example van gogh drawings going degraded every year and there is no solution to save them. Monastic papers been eaten and there is thousands of manuscripts completely eaten by the ink , at last years there is a solution invented and you soak the inked paper and it slows the degradation.
 

All too true. The first things to go are loop letters like the O's which just fall out. Chinese and Japanese inks based on lampblack are much better.
 
I got the same warning w/ my AVG antivirus. If you just need black ink, as Gerald mentioned, lamp black is the way to go. It's made just as you would think it is. For more (way more) about inks than you would ever wish to know, see here

http://www.inkblazers.com/blogs/Think-Ink-1-Types-of-Ink/detail-page/5213

Or, just give me a bottle of whatever you have, and a clean white t-shirt. If it's a permanent ink, I will figure out a way to ruin the shirt in a nano second.
 
How corrosive ig ink is to paper appears to be dependent on the recipe used, whether it contains mineral acid and the ratio of Ferrous sulfate used.

Certainly no one will know what recipe a mediaeval document that has suffered damage was written with.
 
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Gerald C Koch said:
You have rediscovered gallic acid, an ester of pyrogallol. The extract may stain emulsions.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't think I've rediscovered anything, Gerald, as I knew the theory before I started (as stated in the OP )
 
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Oh I'm perfectly well aware that this is nothing new
But I hadn't known about FT's exciting liquid - that's a marvellous phrase! - so thank you for that Alan.
I really ought to read up on him more than I have; I remember cliveh mentioning that his notebooks are interesting, but they seem to be rather expensive.

once I get done with the ink, and if I can find enough galls, I might have a further play with the photographic possibilities - just for the fun of it.

oh, and I've emailed the webmasters at irongallink.org to let them know that some people are experiencing problems. they can sort it out with google. i'm confident it's a false positive.
 
pdeeh said:
oh, and I've emailed the webmasters at irongallink.org to let them know that some people are experiencing problems. they can sort it out with google. i'm confident it's a false positive.
Click to expand...

FWIW, my Avira Pro antivirus (in UK) is also blocking the link for reasons of possible malware. As you say, maybe a false positive, but needs sorting.
 
As I say, it's not going to help this thread stay on track by endless reports about irongallink.org.
I can't do anything about it, it's not my website and I have no control over it, and nor does anyone else here (unless they happen to be responsible for that particular domain).
 

I just thought that it might help, if you were emailing the webmaster, for them to have full information on what seemed to be happening. I know I appreciate any feedback if my own business website is giving problems for users, even if false. I won't bother next time, guess it's not worth trying to be helpful these days.
 
I'd already emailed them, and, as you quoted me saying, it's not my website.

I'm not going to mail them every time someone adds another report about their website to this thread.

What I'd hoped to be a potentially interesting thread has been resolutely derailed, as so many are at APUG. It just seems a shame.
 
The Calotype developer is a physical developer, ie the silver comes from the solution.

To develop modern film a chemical developer using gallic acid with alkali accelerator would appear to work as your example shows.
Gallic acid works faster in combination with phenidone derivatives ,with which it is superadditive, as in this patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US2685516
 
Two interesting links Alan, thank you.
 
Alan Johnson said:
The Calotype developer is a physical developer, ie the silver comes from the solution.
Click to expand...

I've been confused about what "physical development" means. In historical accounts of the calotype process, it seems common to try development with gallic acid first, watch how quickly the image comes up, and then add acetonitrate of silver to speed it up and increase density if necessary. Also I've seen mentioned the idea that you can balance the AgNO3 and acetic acid, the AgNO3 to increase development and the acid to restrain it.... giving great control over development. Some Authors implying that this is where the real control over the negative is. ( In this way, it's similar to how people talk about modern film development. )

So I guess if I develop a calotype only using gallic acid, it is "chemical" development and if I add a little AgNO3 it is "physical"? Is this related in any way to lith printing? Is the "infectious development" in lith printing a kind of "physical development"?

I find calotypes difficult and time consuming enough that I probably will stick with purchased gallic acid, but it would be interesting to see if a calotype could be developed in the gall oak solution, with no other additives. In water, gallic acid is a saturated solution at something like 0.8%, I suspect if you let enough evaporation occur in the fermented gall oak solution, it might get close to this?
 
pdeeh said:
I certainly don't think I've rediscovered anything, Gerald, as I knew the theory before I started (as stated in the OP )
Click to expand...

I apologize, my intent was to point out that oak galls contain gallic acid and its esters and it can be a natural source for a developer. Many people would be unaware of this had you not posted.
 
NedL said:
Is this related in any way to lith printing? Is the "infectious development" in lith printing a kind of "physical development"?
Click to expand...

there are much better authorities than me to answer your question, so I'll quote one:

"In [physical development] the silver ions for reduction at the latent image specks are originally supplied from the developer solution"
(LFA Mason, Photographic Processing Chemistry 2nd Ed. p14)

As I understand it, "Infectious development" is a catalytic reaction triggered by the oxidation products of hydroquinone during development, so is not related to physical development (my source is Mason again

But we'll need a Gerald or a PE or indeed an Alan to confirm or correct this.
 
There's a lovely site devoted to Albumen printing (http://albumen.conservation-us.org) that contains an electronic version of "The Silver Sunbeam" by John Towler M.D., first published in 1864 as a "A Practical and Theoretical Text-Book ON SUN DRAWING AND PHOTOGRAPHIC PRINTING ..."


(http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/monographs/sunbeam/)

PS None of these links throw up errors or warnings for me, but if they do for you, please contact the relevant webmasters directly
 
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