Developing expired b&w

[sagai]

Hello world,
It may answered already, however I have not find that thread .
So what developer would be suggested with what timing for fp4+ expired in '99, delta 100 in '96, delta 3600 in not known time, tmax in '96.
Also, I am puzzled the iso to shoot at.
Thank you!

 

[GarageBoy]

The general rule is knock a stop every decade (at least) and use something that controls the base fog (HC110)
Delta 3200 does not age well- might expose it at ISO 400 or less (it's ISO 1000 native)

 

[pbromaghin]

I have wondered for quite some time about this. Wouldn't stand development with a shake every now and then be about ideal to get everything out of a questionable film?

 

[markbarendt]

With FP4 I'd just make sure you had plenty of exposure and develop normally. By plenty I mean don't underexpose, if you meter well for 125 and you will probably be fine even without testing.

D3200 - test at roll with various EI's and see. Probably be fine in the 1000 to 400 range.

 

[M Carter]

When in doubt test. Shoot a few frames and snip in a changing bag. It can be a hassle to get the rest of the film on the takeup, often you have to trim it to fit.

Or if you have a lot of this stock (and in 35mm), shoot a test roll, bracket 4 frames or so at your best-guess speeds, advance and shoot one frame with the lens cap on. Open the back (changing bag or dark room) and put a tiny tab of painter's tape in the middle of the current frame - it will be where the lens is centered. Fold the tape under so you have a "tab" to lift it later. Advance, shoot 4 more, repeat. When you're done, don't rewind the film - open the back (dark room or bag, and take some black film vials or light tight containers with you), cut the film at the roll, and pull it from the takeup. Cut the film at each tape tab (you'll be able to feel them) and discard the tape. Process one strip and store the others in something light tight. You can use a roll's worth of one-shot dev for this since you're only running a few frames at a time. Inspect the first strip and adjust your processing, rinse, repeat.

 

[removed account4]

OP
i don't use new film, and just used expired stuff ...
it is not usually frozen or cold stored but shelf stored at between 50-70ºF ( depending on the season )
i have never really had trouble processing expired film stand develop with coffee and ansco 130 for 30 mins
i prewet and knocked the air bubbles off, then i put the developer in, agitated a little, knocked the bubbles off
and at the end of 30ish mins the film looked very good. i have done this with tmx, tmy, tmz, fp4/5, deltas, tri x, plus x
some as old as the 1980s. the tmz was 10+ years old drawer stored, and over exposed a few stops. none of the film required a fancy developer, like hc110
if you have dektol you might do a test roll in that 1:7 for about 7-8 mins, and over expose your film about 1 stop / 10 years
i use dektol now, both with caffenol c and by itself, no problems with excessive fog &c

don't forget to have fun ..
john

 

[sagai]

Thank you for all of your answers!

 

[markbarendt]

I have wondered for quite some time about this. Wouldn't stand development with a shake every now and then be about ideal to get everything out of a questionable film?

Unless truly abused, film isn't ever questionable.

It follows a very predictable and gentle change slope into it's maturity.

Normal development is the default standard because it's so reliable.

 

[sagai]

Is there any suggestion for Ilford developer?

 

[Mike Crawford]

I've just been doing some testing with some FP4 220 I was given, (pre FP4 Plus) expired in 1982. I rated it at 50 and did a clip test in ID11 at I think 11 minutes which was an initial push of over a stop. Ended up giving it 15 minutes. (My notes are not to hand.) Heavy base fog and darker top and bottom. Considering it's an old slow film and not sure how it's been stored; over exposed and over processed, and used on a subject with high contrast values, not too bad! The last image is from a direct scan of two frames together and corrected in Photoshop.

 

[Mike Crawford]

Interesting to note the box promises frame numbers. If you look at old 120 contacts from the 60s, most will have hand scribed numbers as the film was usually numberless. Indeed when I first started working in London in the 80s, my photographer boss still insisted on his frames being numbered as had started that way in the late 50s. Even though 120 film did have numbers by then!

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

i don't use new film, and just used expired stuff ...

Oh John! Don't get admired when Koda/Fuji discontinues another film. They can't wait 20 years for you to use their films. They also have families to feed.
Come on buy some fresh film. Help those poor factories staying in business.

 

[removed account4]

Oh John! Don't get admired when Koda/Fuji discontinues another film.

i don't think my measley few dollars here and there will do anything for k+f ..

they have discontinued film long before i started using it in 1970.
since 1999 i have probably bought 8,000 sheets of film
( 4x5 - 8x10 ) maybe more, thousands of rolls of film ...
some of it has been expired, some not, some short date.
the way i see it is that if i ( or no one else ) bought the expired film,
it would be in the landfill, and that is no place for film.
expired films still record images, they can still be developed, and printed and for me at least, they work fine.
if i have a client who wants me to shoot film, i will buy it fresh, and it will be ilford film, it is affordable and good stuff
other than the odd freelance job that requires negatives to be contact printed on azo paper ...
i don't plan on buying anymore film at all ... i will either sell off or expose
the few hundred rolls and sheets i have left in the weeks and months to come.
i will be making my own emulsions and printing on paper or glass that is hand coated or salvaged ...
so it will be up to you to buy and shoot current offerings by kody and fuji.
sorry ... i have better things to do with my $, life is expensive.

 

[markbarendt]

Is there any suggestion for Ilford developer?

Most developers don't age as well as film. Use something well inside expiry.

As Mike demonstrated in his test, fog is probably the biggest issue you face, and IMO fog is a big reason to avoid stand development. One of the hopes when using stand development is that the low tones develop more than in normal development but fog is a low tone so stand development may accentuate the problem.

Moving toward constant agitation and keeping development times shorter would be better IMO.

The most reliable fix when using old film is actually just truly full or more than normal exposure to get the important tones up the film curve a ways above the fog.

 

[cobbu2]

I have experience with Plus-X that expired in 1979 and Verichrome Pan from the same timeframe. I expose around EI 50, and certainly no higher than EI 80 to make sure the shadows come out of whatever base fog there may be. Then I develop in HC-110 dilution B for the normal time. HC-110 does well in minimizing the fog and the overexposure compensates for the age of the film. This works very well!