Developing BW 120 - about to start with

[Matus Kalisky]

Hello,

As I got my Rolleiflex 3.5T and at the same time the only pro lab in the city closed - I am strongly considering to develope BW at home. I have never done this before though I have a little experince of contact printing of my 4x5 BW negs.

What I want to do:

Target:
- general phoptography, people, cityscapes, interiors (churches or so). I do not have a problem to use tripod if needed. I do not intend to use a flash.

Use following films:
- Efke (25 & 50), FP4+, Tri-X 320, Delta 3200 and later some more. I should probably not start with more than 1 or 2 films, but those I have mentioned I have already at home.

Developer:
I would probably start with D76 - it seems to be rahter popular and universal. Later I might give some type of Pyrocat a try. (Having my 4x5 also in mind). Also Ilfosol for slow films.

Other chmistry - Ilfostop and Ilfofix (I already have) should be OK also for film I guess - have to check it. I have also some wetting agent.

Process
- I would probably go with JOBO drum - either 1520 or one of the smaller mutitanks

Ouput - I do not have an enlarger and no space for it now. Most of what I will print will be scanned by a lab with Nikon 9000 and printed either with laser on inkjet. I will try some contacts though.

My questions are:
1) What do you think about the chioce of the film/developer combination?

2) Is there some obviously better choice I have overlooked ?

3) Any caveats concerning the whole process? (especially on the developemett itself - agitation and shing/rotation of the drum)

4) What is the necessary equippement part from what I have found in the ILFORD information leaflet: Processing your first B&W film ?

5) Any advice or comment for the start?

Thank you very much

 

[Akki14]

You'll probably/definately need microphen for delta 3200. You can just use a standard 2reel paterson tank with just 1 plastic reel that pulls apart to 120 width rather than a jobo setup. You can get these off of ebay for cheap.

Are you planning on doing inversion agitation or rotary(you need different/shorter processing time for this) or what? I usually do inversions, about 4 or so every 30seconds for short developing times or once a minute for longer developing times.

 

[Roger Hicks]

You may find this handy:

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps how load 120.html

Cheers,

Roger

 

[mikeg]

Your chemistry seems fine to me, stick with D76/ID11 and stay clear of all the esoteric developers until you're comfortable with the whole process.

Loading 120 film onto a spiral can be difficult so definitely take a scrap film and practice in daylight, with your eyes closed, and in the dark until it's second nature.

Mike

 

[Neal]

Hi Matus,

Go for it. You can always experiment with other materials as time goes on but there is no reason to wait. For technique, start with the manufacturers recommendations, there is no incentive for them to steer you in a bad direction.

Neal Wydra

 

[Flotsam]

I use Efke/Adox 50 rollfilm almost exclusively in the studio ans process it in D-76 1:1. I have tried a few other developers but I have found that plain ol' D-76 gives the dependable, controllable results that I like.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have the same goal in mind as (there was a url link here which no longer exists), but I cannot find a good trade study on scanners either here or at hybrid photo. I need to know which scanners are good for black and white [which the Nikon does not seem to be] and what is the actual dpi for 6x6 negatives?

Did I cross into the nether-world? My bad! I am just frustrated that I have spent four months researching this and there are no straight answers anywhere.

Steve

 

[Roger Hicks]

I have the same goal in mind as (there was a url link here which no longer exists), but I cannot find a good trade study on scanners either here or at hybrid photo. I need to know which scanners are good for black and white [which the Nikon does not seem to be] and what is the actual dpi for 6x6 negatives?

Did I cross into the nether-world? My bad! I am just frustrated that I have spent four months researching this and there are no straight answers anywhere.

Steve

Dear Steve,

My understanding is that the big problem is grain aliasing, which is enormously dependent on (a) exposure -- more exposure means bigger grain; (b) developer -- some deliver much finer grain than others, often but not always with a concomitant loss of speed -- and (c) development regime.

From all that I have read, and from about 10 years' experience since getting my first scanner, Ilford XP2 Super is probably the ultimate B+W scanning film; but of course this is anathema to those who want to use an obscure film in an obscure developer with a very precise and idiosyncratic development regime, mainly to show how much they know about photography.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

From all that I have read, and from about 10 years' experience since getting my first scanner, Ilford XP2 Super is probably the ultimate B+W scanning film.

Cheers,

Roger

If scanning negatives to produce inkjet prints, I`d agree with the choice of either XP2 or colour negatives converted to B&W in Photoshop.
Traditional B&W negatives though, almost cry out to be printed on traditional silver gelatin papers.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Traditional B&W negatives though, almost cry out to be printed on traditional silver gelatin papers.

Dear Keith,

No argument here.

Cheers,

R.

 

[DBP]

...but of course this is anathema to those who want to use an obscure film in an obscure developer with a very precise and idiosyncratic development regime, mainly to show how much they know about photography.

But isn't that one of the reasons people talk about photography?

 

[m_liddell]

Dear Steve,

My understanding is that the big problem is grain aliasing, which is enormously dependent on (a) exposure -- more exposure means bigger grain; (b) developer -- some deliver much finer grain than others, often but not always with a concomitant loss of speed -- and (c) development regime.

From all that I have read, and from about 10 years' experience since getting my first scanner, Ilford XP2 Super is probably the ultimate B+W scanning film; but of course this is anathema to those who want to use an obscure film in an obscure developer with a very precise and idiosyncratic development regime, mainly to show how much they know about photography.

Cheers,

Roger

I've given up with scanning b&w film. 6x7 acros negs dev'd in pyrocat and scanned at 4000dpi have visible grain in 8x10 prints. The grain is an absolute nightmare in post processing - any changes make it even more prominent. For hybrid stuff go to http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/

 

[tim_walls]

One bit of advice - personally, I find the Paterson style 'autoloading' reels, while great for 35mm, an absolute royal pain the backside for 120. Jobo style reels are much less hassle in my experience - so a Jobo tank & reel may be worth investing in. (Jobo tanks also use significantly less chemistry if you do rotary processing, and a teensy bit less for normal inversion processing.)

 

[Matus Kalisky]

Thanks for all your answers - I have some more questions

I have quickly read through the Ilfords linfo on some of their developers and found out that if I am developing one film after another with the same developer - I should prolonge the developing time for subsequent films by some 10% for each. This is I suppose rather rough estimate and given the fact that change of developing time (now considering only one film only) by ~30% makes a large difference - how one reaches consistency? My point is here that for example if I will use JOBO drum - than the amount of developer solution needed depends on the processing - rotary versus inversions. But this has to affect the reltive prolongation of developing times for subsequent films... Hmmm...
So - the question 1)
- how do you adjust time with subsequent films with the same developer?

Cocerning the scanning - well - let's see how it goes. The problem with grain becoming more visible with adjustements in PS is unfortunately true. But I do not want to give up on the controll of the process and stick with just one film. Once my PhD is over I will for sure get an enlarger (for up to 4x5 for that matter).

Question 2)
Concering the agitation - rotary versus inversions. Is the motor base necessary for the rotary processing? Wouldn't just rolling on the table do the job?

 

[Akki14]

I'm not sure about adjusting times for rotary reuse as you tend to use a different amount(smaller) of liquid for rotary usually. I think you have more leeway with inversion tanks because there's extra chemistry around the films. You just take the time for the given film from the chart and keep track of how many films the chemistry has been used on. The developer gets slowly exhausted, hence the need to increase the time to get consistent results.

I think you'll find that the 15% decrease in time isn't worth you rolling around a tank on a table for the (average)8-10minutes it takes to develop a typical roll of film. The advantage of rotary processing is that you can just sit it down on a motor base and leave it alone.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Rotary processing is almost invariably conducted 'one shot' (developer used once and discarded). 'One shot' is inherently more predictable and reliable than time-extension with re-use. The only exception is a 'fully seasoned' developer (replenished, and pretty much in an equilibrium state), which is extremely predictable but because of bromide build-up as it reaches equilibrium typically loses 1 stop in speed.

You actually need very little developer to develop a film. The vast majority is needed to wet the film quickly and evenly, and is discarded effectively unused. There are a very few developers that do oxidize or exhaust almost completely during the development of a single film or batch -- PMK is an example -- but the belief that you need a wild excess of any normal developer (a belief widespread among some LF users) is completely mistaken.

My own recommendation would be for a single-use developer with a long shelf life, used at a fairly high dilution, ideally Ilford DD-X 1+9 instead of 1+4, if developer cost is a significant concern -- though I'd recommend the same dev 1+4, as you can still develop a surprising number of films over a long period without spending a fortune.

I will however repeat my own earlier comments about scanning, and echo those of others: results when scanning conventional mono films are normally dire, not least because of the Callier effect when scanning. XP2 Super, with its dye (not silver) structure scans vastly better, and still prints very well indeed on 'real' silver halide paper. There's slightly more about this in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps hybrid darkroom.html

Are the constraints before the end of your PhD financial or spatial? Because a CPE-2 doesn't cost much; nor does an enlarger. If on the other hand you don't have room, there's nothing to be done (though you might want to look at the Nova darkroom tent. This is illustrated in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/darkroom.html

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Neal]

Dear Matus,

If you are just starting out, go with the standard inversion tanks. A much lower investment to find out how much you are going to enjoy this whole process. Skip re-using developer for now. You will get much more consistent results and D-76 is a lot cheaper than film. If you really enjoy using film but find the actual film processing to be less than fun, the rotary systems are wonderful.

Neal Wydra

 

[Matus Kalisky]

Thanks for your detailed answers. But I am now a bit confused with the developer still.

according to Kodak information on D-76 I come to following cnclusion.
When using 1:1 dillution of D-76:

1) to develope one 120 film I am supposed to use 473ml or half of it but increase the v developing time by 10%. The developer is to be discarded afterwards.

2) Here in Germany one can buy D-76 to make 3.8 liters of solution for cca 7 euro. The question is - it is for 3.8 liters of stock solution (more probable) or 1:1 dilluted solution. This would yield into 8 or 16 films developed (or 16 & 32 if using only 273 ml per film with longer developement times).

3) Now - if I will use the JOBO Unitank 1520 for developing two 120 films at a time - I am supposed to use (according to JOBO) 485mm of solution for inversin agitation what equals the amount the ilford quotes for 10% prolongated developement time. My questin is - if I would develope only one film at a time in the mentioned JOBO drum (I guess I shuld still use the 485mm of developer) would it be reasonable to use it for developing andother film afterwards with cca 10% longer developing time?

4) Kodak strongly advices to mix the stock solution from the whole package. But there are no canisters of 3.8 liters around. Is it OK to keep it in 5 liter canister or just put it in several smaller bottels.. ?

5) Would it be OK to develope two DIFFERENT films with the same batch at a time IF they have the same developement time?

5) I suppose that points 1 - 5 are valid for Ilford ID-11 as well

6) Which developer would you advice to use ofr Ilford Delta 3200 exposed at 3200 - and at what developement times?

Bottom line comment - the main constrain my PhD brings along is especially the TIME. SPACE restriction are given by our flat, but I gues it may change in half a year or so. At the moment contact printing of 4x5" is on the limit.

 

[Akki14]

I'm fairly sure it's 3.8litres of stock solution and you can mix it up in a clean bucket then decant it into separate bottles or a 5litre bottle, whatever is easier for you to pour; I suggest smaller bottles as you'll be measuring out mostly small amounts.
Do not mix up different developing times. Stick with what it says on the package and on the tank. In my paterson tank, I need 500ml of liquid to develop 1 120 film. If I use my very big tank and do 3 rolls, I need 1500ml of liquid. Don't think about reusing developer yet. Keep it simple - you're confusing me and I know what I'm doing usually!

Simple explaination of what you do broken down...

- load film onto spools and place in tank in total darkness or in a darkbag/changing bag. Make sure the tank is closed up properly.

-Look at your developer's instructions. If it says 1+4 that means you should divide the amount of liquid you need (say for 1 120 film it takes 500ml of liquid) by 5. So for 500ml of liquid, you'd need 100ml of stock solution and 400ml of water. Since you say that it's 1:1 dilution, that's easy, just divide the amount of liquid needed by half and use that much stock and that much water mixed up.
- Make sure you have an equal amount(500ml per 1 120 film) of stopbath (or water) mixed up and set aside.
- Make sure you have an equal amount (500ml per 1 120 film) of fixer mixed up and set aside.

- Before adding chemicals to tank, check the temperature of everything. The temperature of the fix and stopbath should be within 5-10degrees C of the developer but it's not strictly essential. If your developer is outside of the range of 20C or whatever is recommended on the packet, you can either waterbath the jug of chemicals until it is 20C or adjust the developing time if the developer packet directions say you can and provides a chart.

- Add the developer to the tank, start your timer, put lid on quickly and do a few inversions or a whole minute or a whole 30seconds of inversions - take your pick but whatever you do, stick with it for consistency.
- Do 5-10 inversions at the start of every minute after this.

- 10 seconds before your time is up, pour away the developer and get ready to pour in the stopbath as soon as the timer hits the time you want to stop development at.
- Replace lid on tank, invert a few times, drain stopbath into another container to reuse or, if using water, pour down the drain after 30seconds.
- Reset timer, pour in fix, start timer, put lid on tank, invert a few times as before and do similar inversions until your fixing time is up.
- Pour out the fix to either save & reuse or dispose of properly or down the drain whatever your opinions and local laws might be.
- Rinse film for 5 minutes in running water or using the Ilford wash method which is in their own pdf file on developing your first film.
- add photo flo to water as directed on bottle (this is more or less just a few drops or 1ml per 500ml of liquid) take film and reels out of tank.
- Carefully remove the film from the reel and hang it up using film clips or clothing pegs or whatever you want/have on hand. Remember to put a film clip or a few clothes pegs on the bottom of the film hanging up too so the film dries more straight.

Yes I'd say that as long as the two different films do actually have the same development times you could do them at the same time in the same tank. In real life, this doesn't happen often, at least for me.

I recommend using Ilford's Microphen developer - one shot stock solution for Delta 3200 exposed at 3200. You cannot reuse this developer for delta 3200 because you are push processing the film. I recommending looking at the packaging for Microphen and going with the time for 6400 instead of 3200. This seems to be common practice on APUG and it's worked for me quite well.

I hope this hasn't confused you more.

 

[Charlie-J]

Mixing 1US gal /3.8L D76 packs

B]4)[/B] Kodak strongly advices to mix the stock solution from the whole package. But there are no canisters of 3.8 liters around. Is it OK to keep it in 5 liter canister or just put it in several smaller bottels.. ?


I mixed up a batch of D76 last week I will use it all in 2-4 months.
I live in a very hard water area and always use De-ionised water for my photography.
I mix the D76 in a stainless steel bucket as per the Kodak instructions.
I have ready 4 X 1L clean glass chemical bottles, I place a filter paper in my funnel and fill the first 3 bottles right up to the top the 4th bottle will contain about 500-600ml of developer.
I then label the bottles and use the partially filled bottle first.
Kodak says that full stoppered bottles of D76 will keep for 6 months.
I use D76 for Tri-x and Plus-X and always use one shot, you wont go far wrong with D76/ ID11 IMHO.


6) Which developer would you advice to use ofr Ilford Delta 3200 exposed at 3200 - and at what developement times?

I would start with Ilford DDX for Delta 3200, I have had good results with the delta films in DDX.
Microphen is supposed to be good for delta 3200 to but I have not used that combo yet.
You gan get a great deal of information from the Ilford & Kodak websites on all the there photo products in PDF format.

Hope this helps

Charlie

 

[Matus Kalisky]

Thanks a lot. Things are clarear to me now.

Some more questions still, but slowly converging.

1) Concerning the Ilford Pan F, FP4+ or Efke 25/50 - what (and why) would be your choise of developer: D-76 or Microphen ?

2) Here we have also very hard water. Should I better use distilled water for mixing chemicals ? And what about the film washing?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Thanks a lot. Things are clarear to me now.

Some more questions still, but slowly converging.

1) Concerning the Ilford Pan F, FP4+ or Efke 25/50 - what (and why) would be your choise of developer: D-76 or Microphen ?

2) Here we have also very hard water. Should I better use distilled water for mixing chemicals ? And what about the film washing?

\
Distilled/deionized water for chemical mixing is never a bad idea, though I live in a VERY hard water area and don't bother.

Hard water washes much more effectively than distilled, but leaves residues, so I use 4 washes: two hard, two distilled (recycled from my dehumidifier, in fact).

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Charlie-J]

Thanks a lot. Things are clarear to me now.

Some more questions still, but slowly converging.



2) Here we have also very hard water. Should I better use distilled water for mixing chemicals ? And what about the film washing?

I mix all my photo chems with De-ionised water because I get all mine free and my water is so hard that a fresh mix of fixer or Stop bath fizzes when it is mixed up with the tap water. I use quite a bit of Rodinal and R09 The R09 data sheet recommends the use of RO (reverse osmosis) water for dilution of the developer.
They are also scouring the pipes at the moment and my water is rusty at times!
I wash / rinse my films in tap water but the final wash is always with Deo water+wetting agent. If I do not do this I will get calcium deposits on my negatives.
I never use a Squeegee keep those things away from EFKE/ADOX films as they are really soft when they are wet.

If you want to use the minimum of Deo water mix your D76 and Fixer with the tap water but give all your films a final wash in Deo water.
You should be ok.

1) Concerning the Ilford Pan F, FP4+ or Efke 25/50 - what (and why) would be your choice of developer: D-76 or Microphen ?

Personally I would not use either of the above developers on Pan F or Efke 25 and Efke 50. Because D76 is a solvent developer and I think Microphen is to??.
These films have extremely fine grain so a solvent developer is no advantage here, thats what I have read anyway.
When I bought my first rolls of EFKE 25 and 50 from Retro Photographic they recommended R09 / Rodinal.
I use Rodinal diluted between 1-50 to 1-100 for these films. I do this because I get good sharpness from the Rodinal and by varying the dilution can alter the contrast to suit the subject and I am happy with the results I get from this combo, especially Efke 25+1:100 Rodinal.
Although I have Developed Efke 25 in Microdol-X 1-3 this controlled the contrast it was not very sharp but looked really nice IMHO.
If I had to use D76 or Microphen for the above films I would use D76 because I could probably find some good starting times and photo samples on the WWW pretty quickly.

For FP4+ I love it in Stock D76 / ID11. Very sharp and punchy I have not used microphen with this film, but when I have pushed it to 200 I used DDX.

Charlie

 

[Matus Kalisky]

I am getting closer - soon a JOBO 1520 drum with 1 plastic film spool should be delivered. I was browsing through some older threads and found out that it is possible to develop two 120 film on one spool at a time. That's nice, although I will start with one film at a time. Now my question is:

How much developer do I have to use when developing only 1 film in the JOBO 1520 drum? - I guess that it sould be enough to "cover" the spool so I would expect about half what JOBO advices to use for inversion agitation (485ml) what would be cca 250ml. Of course I can mesure it, but I am just want to be sure.

Once I would go for 2 films on one spool - how much developer should be used in this case?

thanks.

 

[tim_walls]

I am getting closer - soon a JOBO 1520 drum with 1 plastic film spool should be delivered. I was browsing through some older threads and found out that it is possible to develop two 120 film on one spool at a time. That's nice, although I will start with one film at a time. Now my question is:

How much developer do I have to use when developing only 1 film in the JOBO 1520 drum? - I guess that it sould be enough to "cover" the spool so I would expect about half what JOBO advices to use for inversion agitation (485ml) what would be cca 250ml. Of course I can mesure it, but I am just want to be sure.

Once I would go for 2 films on one spool - how much developer should be used in this case?

thanks.

If by 'only 1 film' you are still talking about 120 (not 35mm,) you'll still need the 485mm for inversion processing - you need that amount to cover the whole reel. If you process 2 rolls, they both go onto the same spool -basically, wind the first roll onto the film but don't stop winding once the whole film is on the spool, wind it all the way into the middle of the spool. There's a small red catch which you then stick on which marks the end of the the first roll. Then wind your second roll onto the spool - the red catch will make sure you can't wind it so far onto the spool that it touches the first.

Of course, when I say 'make sure' it can't, that's not strictly true - I've had one cockup where I thought the first roll was all the way on but in fact it wasn't, and wound up with the last frame of roll 1 overlapping the first frame of roll 2 (they welded each other together that way in processing and made a royal mess.) In other words - be careful and practice .


If you're only doing 1 roll of 35mm, you could cut down the amount of dev yes because you'll need less dev to cover the roll. Just stick a 35mm reel in, fill with water until it's fully covered, and then pour the water into a measuring jug to find out the amount you need.



Edit: Just to clarify, you still need the full 485mm for one roll of 120mm because the reel goes in "on it's side" - it's the width of the film that you have to cover. If you are processing two rolls of 35mm you stack one spool above the other, so you need twice as much to cover both rolls (or, in other words, half as much to only cover one.) With 120 though both films go on the same spool, so the same amount of dev is required either way.