Developing B+W film at 28 Celsius

Venchka · Aug 15, 2009

I actually measured my tap water last week while developing some 4x5 Arista-EDU Ultra 200. Houston, Texas. August. 28°C. I was surpised. My habit of keeping my chemicals in the refrigerator worked perfectly. I fill a dishpan with tap water & place Xtol, fix & several containers of water in the dishpan. I amuse myself doing other things and the water temps. even out at 19°C-20°C. The large volume of liquid stays relatively uniform while I process film. It rises to 22°C or less. Ambient room temp. is 81°F-83°F.

Bottom line: Developing film in the summer in high heat isn't difficult at all. Even 20°C-68°F is easy.

I must admit that I learned how to develop film before the Internet. I'm glad I did. We didn't know anything. We got along fine.

Kirk Keyes · Aug 16, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
FYI, there are those that argue that the heat generated by a stop bath after development, as it neutralizes the developer will cause grain clumping. This is also untrue! There are so many myths in B&W and Color photography that we are in the middle ages.

Maybe that's an error that Bill Troop can fix in the Film Developing Cookbook, as I believe that's one of his reasons for promoting alkaline fixers.

meisburger · Aug 16, 2009

There is no problem developing modern film at high temperatures. I do it all the time in Bangkok at 30 degrees. the only potential problem is the short development times, but you can change those through dilution.

Tim

Ian Grant · Aug 16, 2009

clayne said:
I'm not saying balance isn't important, I'm simply saying that pragmatically small differences have never made an effect and I'd be 100x more worried about 20C differences rather than 4C.

Obviously I check my dev temperatures and adjust time accordingly. However, I don't run liters of water around just to hit 20C.

When I started in photography and particularly colour, processing chemistry had to be kept to a strict ±½°F that's less than 0.3°C.

While no-one ever advocates that tight a control over B&W processing it's important to put a 2°C - 4°C difference into perspective.. 4°C is quite significant in human terms it's the balance between normality and severe illness.

You should be able to notice a 4°C change in temperature very easily, it may well be enough to shock some films and cause increased grain.

2°C is usually given as the extremes of variation for B&W negatives, but at higher temperatures even that might be more critical.

I have seen the difference that relatively small temperature variations can cause, and while a 4°C variation probably won't cause excessive grain it does knock the grain from being very fine to more noticeable with some films. I wouldn't keep re-iterating this if I hadn't seen it for myself.

Ian

clayne · Aug 16, 2009

Ian, I am not talking about the DEVELOPER. I've been beating this door for a while now. Stop-bath, fixer, blix, etc. They do not need to be regulated to the degree. If you honestly believe you notice the difference between 2-4C differences in your fixer and stop-bath, then by all means, sit there and make sure they're constantly the same temperature. I'll keep on doing my filthy method of letting them be and only checking the developer rigidly.

Ian Grant · Aug 16, 2009

Why do you make it sound so difficult ?

Keeping stop-bath (or rinse), fixer and wash water within 2 degrees of the developer is remarkably easy, it actually needs remarkably little effort, checking or monitoring and is the way the vast majority of photographers work anyway.

Ian

clayne · Aug 16, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Why do you make it sound so difficult ?

Keeping stop-bath (or rinse), fixer and wash water within 2 degrees of the developer is remarkably easy, it actually needs remarkably little effort, checking or monitoring and is the way the vast majority of photographers work anyway.

Ian

I tend to disagree that the vast majority of photographers double-check their stop-bath and fixer temperatures. For one, the entire issue becomes moot in about 30 minutes of processing as the temps equalize across the board. I believe you're drawing more importance to it than it even needs, honestly.

I don't have time in the darkroom to screw around water-bathing non-critical-step chemicals or other-wise playing around with variables that will mean nothing at the end of the day, honestly.

Steve Smith · Aug 16, 2009

Venchka said:
Bottom line: Developing film in the summer in high heat isn't difficult at all. Even 20°C-68°F is easy.

Let me throw in another variable then.

Supposing all chemistry is regulated at 20 degrees right through the process. What about the shock of starting with a film in a dry condition at a high or low ambient room temperature. Say 15 or 28 degrees?

Steve.

Ian Grant · Aug 16, 2009

When in the UK in my house with NO central heating in the winter I'd warm the loaded tank in a bowl of warm water, that was enough.

Here in Turkey actually the tank temperature has never been an issue, and it is 28°C indoors for much of the summer where I process, even when 40°-42° outside.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Aug 16, 2009

The bottom line is that modern B&W films that are properly hardened can be processed at virtually any temperature as long as the development conditions (agitation, dilution and time) are adjusted to give the same speed and contrast. If this is done, then the image should be virtually identical to one produced at the "normal" 68F (20C). If the film is subject to abrupt temperature changes, there is a chance to cause reticulation and this varies from film to film as each manufacturer uses a different hardener and different drying conditions as well as different hardener levels.

Gradual temperature rises or drops should not cause any problem. I have washed film at up to 85 deg F, but used a gradual rise to get there. I have no doubt that some films would reticulate if dropped abruptly into 85 deg F wash water from 68 F non-hardening fix.

PE

JBrunner · Aug 16, 2009

clayne said:
I tend to disagree that the vast majority of photographers double-check their stop-bath and fixer temperatures. For one, the entire issue becomes moot in about 30 minutes of processing as the temps equalize across the board. I believe you're drawing more importance to it than it even needs, honestly.

I don't have time in the darkroom to screw around water-bathing non-critical-step chemicals or other-wise playing around with variables that will mean nothing at the end of the day, honestly.

Well I guess I must be a minority

I can see no reason why one wouldn't keep to a standard temperature regimen regarding the entire process, as a matter of fact it would actually take effort on my part to make a great variance between baths. To each his own of course, but I personally don't see any reason why I would introduce variance into my process. Repeatable standards are the basis for control, and only control allows departure. Anything else is just mucking around, which is fine if that is what one wants to do. I shudder at the thought of a newb disregarding standards, but of course it probably depends on if they want to really be a printer, or just take pictures. Personally, that "5% that doesn't matter" is very important to me and my printing because in my negs near 100% of the subtleties that make the difference between a picture and a print can be found in that 5%.

Stoo Batchelor · Aug 16, 2009

JBrunner said:
Well I guess I must be a minority

I can see no reason why one wouldn't keep to a standard temperature regimen regarding the entire process, as a matter of fact it would actually take effort on my part to make a great variance between baths. To each his own of course, but I personally don't see any reason why I would introduce variance into my process. Repeatable standards are the basis for control, and only control allows departure. Anything else is just mucking around, which is fine if that is what one wants to do. I shudder at the thought of a newb disregarding standards, but of course it probably depends on if they want to really be a printer, or just take pictures. Personally, that "5% that doesn't matter" is very important to me and my printing because in my negs near 100% of the subtleties that make the difference between a picture and a print can be found in that 5%.

Very well written indeed, and important that you mention the 'Newb' as I feel it is very important that they, and I still regard myself as one, are taught the proper way to do things, and I chose the words 'proper way' with care, as it appears that we all can't agree on what is the 'right way' to do things.

Best

Stoo

Photo Engineer · Aug 16, 2009

Steve Smith said:
Let me throw in another variable then.

Supposing all chemistry is regulated at 20 degrees right through the process. What about the shock of starting with a film in a dry condition at a high or low ambient room temperature. Say 15 or 28 degrees?

Steve.

Steve;

This should present no problem, as the heat capacity of film is low, very low, compared to the water in the developer or prewet.

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 16, 2009

In my experience film reels and development tanks cool down very quickly after being dried in hot air.

Tom

clayne · Aug 16, 2009

JBrunner said:
Well I guess I must be a minority

I can see no reason why one wouldn't keep to a standard temperature regimen regarding the entire process, as a matter of fact it would actually take effort on my part to make a great variance between baths. To each his own of course, but I personally don't see any reason why I would introduce variance into my process. Repeatable standards are the basis for control, and only control allows departure. Anything else is just mucking around, which is fine if that is what one wants to do. I shudder at the thought of a newb disregarding standards, but of course it probably depends on if they want to really be a printer, or just take pictures. Personally, that "5% that doesn't matter" is very important to me and my printing because in my negs near 100% of the subtleties that make the difference between a picture and a print can be found in that 5%.

I completely agree with you that for chemicals stored in the lab/darkroom it is highly unlikely there will be a significant difference in temperature. However, some people might have different setups, or sinks located outside the darkroom for which they just grab some water for washing or a water-stop, etc.

This is the post that originally started it:

Steve Smith said:
I have never worried about the temperature of my stop bath and fix as I don't think it is important for it to match the developer temperature.

Development is a chemical process taken to a pre-determined point which is controlled by time and temperature. Stop bath and fixer are processes which are taken to completion which do not need to be accurately controlled.

and the reply:

Stoo Batchelor said:
I have to agree with PhotoJim, this is bad, bad advice. Lets just say that you have been getting away with it Steve.

Don't try this at home kids!

Pretty alarmist don't you think? That's what I was taking issue with, in addition to the fact that I do water-stop at average tap temperatures and have never had any issues with reticulation or grain-clumping, not even in the slightest. Sure, it's anecdotal, but I'd speculate the warnings of grain-smashing boogeymen are probably backed up with even less real-world evidence.

Surely we'd rather have new people spending time on creating images, working on exposure, learning idiosyncrasies of certain films, agitation, etc. rather than racking their brains over the importance of calibrating fixer temperature, don't you think?

One thing I'd like to point out, admittedly at the risk of pissing off a good contingent of people, is that it appears that mostly the "fine-art"/landscape/still-life photographers display the most concern whereas others, like myself, who don't concentrate on those styles, probably have less of a concern.

If that final 5% is what separates a "picture" from a "print" - then does the subject matter really stand on it's own or is it an exercise in silver-halide based eye candy?

Photo Engineer · Aug 16, 2009

Grain clumping due to a stop bath or temperature shock is a myth that should be dispelled.

It is not true. The shock in changing from one temperature to another can, at best, cause reticulation in some brands of film that are not fully hardened.

In fact, at Kodak, I had never heard of grain clumping due to high temperature or use of a stop bath and when I did, I asked several top experts. They all dismissed it as a popular myth and one went so far as to give me an idea of the energy that would be needed to cause two grains of silver metal to clump. The values were rather preposterous when you consider temperatures in the average darkroom.

PE

Stoo Batchelor · Aug 16, 2009

Dig! Dig! Dig!

You missed out this quote that I said Clayne

Sloppiness equals laziness.

Or this one of yours

Which means not endlessly worrying about shadow detail, grainless-ness, or other bullshit details

I do hope that any 'newb' decides against following any advice that you give.

And for what its worth, when I made my alarmist quote, I was agreeing with PhotoJim, who said, and I quote;

If the temperatures are too different, you risk reticulation.

TOO DIFFERENT Clayne, not one or two degrees. I do actually agree that you will probably see no real difference with a small variation in temperature, but I would allways advocate doing things correctly throughout. As far as I am concerned there is never a truer quote than "You Can't Hurry A Fine Print"

Stoo

clayne said:
I completely agree with you that for chemicals stored in the lab/darkroom it is highly unlikely there will be a significant difference in temperature. However, some people might have different setups, or sinks located outside the darkroom for which they just grab some water for washing or a water-stop, etc.

This is the post that originally started it:

and the reply:

Pretty alarmist don't you think? That's what I was taking issue with, in addition to the fact that I do water-stop at average tap temperatures and have never had any issues with reticulation or grain-clumping, not even in the slightest. Sure, it's anecdotal, but I'd speculate the warnings of grain-smashing boogeymen are probably backed up with even less real-world evidence.

Surely we'd rather have new people spending time on creating images, working on exposure, learning idiosyncrasies of certain films, agitation, etc. rather than racking their brains over the importance of calibrating fixer temperature, don't you think?

One thing I'd like to point out, admittedly at the risk of pissing off a good contingent of people, is that it appears that mostly the "fine-art"/landscape/still-life photographers display the most concern whereas others, like myself, who don't concentrate on those styles, probably have less of a concern.

If that final 5% is what separates a "picture" from a "print" - then does the subject matter really stand on it's own or is it an exercise in silver-halide based eye candy?

JBrunner · Aug 16, 2009

clayne said:
I completely agree with you that for chemicals stored in the lab/darkroom it is highly unlikely there will be a significant difference in temperature. However, some people might have different setups, or sinks located outside the darkroom for which they just grab some water for washing or a water-stop, etc.

This is the post that originally started it:

and the reply:

Pretty alarmist don't you think? That's what I was taking issue with, in addition to the fact that I do water-stop at average tap temperatures and have never had any issues with reticulation or grain-clumping, not even in the slightest. Sure, it's anecdotal, but I'd speculate the warnings of grain-smashing boogeymen are probably backed up with even less real-world evidence.

Surely we'd rather have new people spending time on creating images, working on exposure, learning idiosyncrasies of certain films, agitation, etc. rather than racking their brains over the importance of calibrating fixer temperature, don't you think?

One thing I'd like to point out, admittedly at the risk of pissing off a good contingent of people, is that it appears that mostly the "fine-art"/landscape/still-life photographers display the most concern whereas others, like myself, who don't concentrate on those styles, probably have less of a concern.

If that final 5% is what separates a "picture" from a "print" - then does the subject matter really stand on it's own or is it an exercise in silver-halide based eye candy?

As I said, to each his own. The best print I can make is what matters to me, not time, not convenience, not guesswork, not chance, and not laziness. If it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't, and that's fine. That the subject speaks to me is a given, if I choose to print it. The idea that that being a very good printer, being in control of the process, and paying attention to detail to produce the finest print one can make, is somehow an impediment to art or expression is ridiculous.

So basically, I can't agree. Bringing developer stop and fixer to the same temp involves a cat litter tray and a couple gallons of water. If that causes someone to wrack their brain, perhaps they should seek a different avocation.

That is why I too think it is patently bad advice, particularly to persons who might not yet know the difference. For me, the darkroom is the place where the culmination of the photographic expression manifests in a print. The print is why I go through all the other work. I'm not going to half ass it, and I wouldn't be satisfied with anything but the best. Das Beste Oder Nichts. YMMV

tom_bw · Aug 16, 2009

When my water has been too warm, I filled a small tub with water and threw in a frozen ice pack to bring the temperature down to 20'c.

That being said, if using warmer than normal temperatures, be aware that most developers contian multiple developing agents that display different sensitivities to increased temperatures. As such, for such developers, the results will not be the same even if the time is compensated for the temperature. Perceptol (or Microdol X) on the other hand contain only one developing agent, so they tend to be quite very consistent irrespective of the temperature (so long as the time is suitably altered for the given temperature).

clayne · Aug 16, 2009

JBrunner said:
As I said, to each his own. The best print I can make is what matters to me, not time, not convenience, not guesswork, not chance, and not laziness. If it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't, and that's fine. That the subject speaks to me is a given, if I choose to print it. The idea that that being a very good printer, being in control of the process, and paying attention to detail to produce the finest print one can make, is somehow an impediment to art or expression is ridiculous.

JB, I think that people should strive to make the best print they can and pay attention to detail, absolutely. However, I believe there is a pragmatic difference to what matters and what is all in the head (i.e. doesn't really make a difference at all).

Never said it was an impediment to art or expression. I was simply pointing out that it might be a detail that really doesn't matter. Also, why are people ignoring what PE said in regards to temp differences not causing grain-clumping and only a small risk of reticulation with modern films?

JBrunner said:
So basically, I can't agree. Bringing developer stop and fixer to the same temp involves a cat litter tray and a couple gallons of water. If that causes someone to wrack their brain, perhaps they should seek a different avocation.

How is that not a hassle? A hassle that might not buy us anything at all but wasted time if the temperature differences don't even make a difference in reality? When I say "wrack their brain" I mean having someone be overly concerned about it. New people don't typically know what to be and not to be concerned about in the beginning.

JBrunner said:
That is why I too think it is patently bad advice, particularly to persons who might not yet know the difference. For me, the darkroom is the place where the culmination of the photographic expression manifests in a print. The print is why I go through all the other work. I'm not going to half ass it, and I wouldn't be satisfied with anything but the best. Das Beste Oder Nichts. YMMV

The darkroom is also that place for me. However, are you saying I'm half-assing it because I don't check my stop and fixer temperatures? That's the crux of this entire debate, really.

Photo Engineer · Aug 16, 2009

If my room is at 66 deg F or 71 deg F, the chemistry stored there for days is at the same temperature. I set my sink to that temperature, adjust development accordingly and begin processing. The temps, the room and the wash water all stay there pretty much in the tanks, but in the trays they begin to drop in temp due to slight evaporation.

All of the trays drop about the same amount, but then I have never seen reticulation in paper!

PE

JBrunner · Aug 16, 2009

clayne said:
J
The darkroom is also that place for me. However, are you saying I'm half-assing it because I don't check my stop and fixer temperatures? That's the crux of this entire debate, really.

Nope, I'm not saying that at all...I'm saying I would be half-assing it if I did things that way, so I don't. You can do whatever you want, and whatever it is to you, that's what it is.

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2009

Temperature Control Update

Since the original post that started the thread I've done a fair bit of film processing.

Outside temperatures have varied from today's 28°C to the 41°-42°C of a few weeks ago, tap water temperature has been between 25°-26.5°C.

Given those parameters and using my fixer at the stored temperature I've found on all occasions all steps have been within 0.2°C, that's with no water baths or cooling. (I use an Ilford DT30 - digital thermometer which reads to 0.1°C).

This year the tap water has never risen above 27°C, I use the tap water temperature as my base temperature adjusting Dev time using WLab/DLab a Darkroom process timer program.

I have bigger problems with temperature variations in the UK, where tap water can be very cold.

Ian

Developing B+W film at 28 Celsius

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