How about vacuum packing your film in individual packs with one of those kitchen vacuum sealers? Then if perchance you have a brown out, and you do have condensation in the freezer, it won't affect your film.
Developing a strategy for a lifetime (10 years) supply of film.
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Excelllent idea keith. I may do it in lots of 3 or 5 boxes.
Color films contain organic solvents to aid imaging. There was concern during space missions that these solvents would evaporate under the vacuum conditions on the moon or the low pressure conditions during the trip there and back. As it turned out, there was no problem when Kodak ran the tests, but they were for only 6 - 10 days exposure to vacuum and reduced pressure.
IDK what would happen if you should do this in a freezer for 10 years, especially with an ambient high pressure atmosphere.
Good luck.
PE
IDK what would happen if you should do this in a freezer for 10 years, especially with an ambient high pressure atmosphere.
Good luck.
PE
Ron, I am not sure which organic solvents are present, but my guess is that their vapor pressures at low temps will be negligible and that outward solvent diffusion won't be an issue. I wouldn't vacuum pack a film and leave it at room temp for long term storage, but if it's stored cool... This is quite different situation than the huge temperature extremes that the early spaceraft went through several times per day... not to mention re-entry.... and the complete lack of radiation protection by the atmosphere.
If we know what the solvents are then we can look up the vapor pressures.... If it's an issue then you can backfill with dry air to almost ambient pressure.
Anyway, as you stay Steve, it's not like you would pack a bunch of stuff into a freezer and not touch it for ten years; on the contrary, you would be continuously using it in small batches and assessing any degradation as you go. My feeling is that there will be zero degradation in a modern, low speed (160) colour film if stored as you intend. Let's reopen this thread in ten years and see how that prediction fared! If you still have any of your film left by then, it will be worth a lot indeed!
One final thought, if you ever have a feeling that a film that is important to you might be going off market, then for heaven's sake go ahead buy up a bunch and don't think twice- don't second guess yourself. As lucky as I was to get some polaroid materials that I did when I did, I nevertheless passed up on some opportunities to have a lot more of those films and now they are no more.... and the price for 8x10 colour polaroid is now above $50 per shot!
If we know what the solvents are then we can look up the vapor pressures.... If it's an issue then you can backfill with dry air to almost ambient pressure.
Anyway, as you stay Steve, it's not like you would pack a bunch of stuff into a freezer and not touch it for ten years; on the contrary, you would be continuously using it in small batches and assessing any degradation as you go. My feeling is that there will be zero degradation in a modern, low speed (160) colour film if stored as you intend. Let's reopen this thread in ten years and see how that prediction fared! If you still have any of your film left by then, it will be worth a lot indeed!
One final thought, if you ever have a feeling that a film that is important to you might be going off market, then for heaven's sake go ahead buy up a bunch and don't think twice- don't second guess yourself. As lucky as I was to get some polaroid materials that I did when I did, I nevertheless passed up on some opportunities to have a lot more of those films and now they are no more.... and the price for 8x10 colour polaroid is now above $50 per shot!
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on a side note, your kitchen sealers don't create a complete vacuum. If that was so then any liquids would boil at room temperatures. They remove a great deal of the air in the bag.
Well, I said that there was no observed problem in total vacuum for 6+ days. And, spacecraft experience cold, but not heat (in the astronauts environment they are proteted by the heat, and when the cameras were used outside it was very cold).
So, I was not suggesting it would be a problem, but that it might be an unusual environment for long term storate. I myself would prefer a sealed container at ambient pressure and low humidity. In effect, a spacecraft is at about 1/3 atmosphere or less IIRC, but the vacuum bags are really at room pressure with no air which is different.
In any case, the low (apparent) pressure could induce problems. IDK, and that is the problem. It is a new, untested condition. That is all I'm trying to illustrate.
Now, the solvents are quite high in vapor pressure, so that is probably not going to be a problem unless it leads to brittleness over 10+ years. Again, IDK. I doubt it. I'm trying only to bring up the fact that this is unknown territory.
Finally, all films change with time for one reason or another. I could give a lot of factors here, but some include oxidation of organics, evaporation, crystallization and others.
PE
So, I was not suggesting it would be a problem, but that it might be an unusual environment for long term storate. I myself would prefer a sealed container at ambient pressure and low humidity. In effect, a spacecraft is at about 1/3 atmosphere or less IIRC, but the vacuum bags are really at room pressure with no air which is different.
In any case, the low (apparent) pressure could induce problems. IDK, and that is the problem. It is a new, untested condition. That is all I'm trying to illustrate.
Now, the solvents are quite high in vapor pressure, so that is probably not going to be a problem unless it leads to brittleness over 10+ years. Again, IDK. I doubt it. I'm trying only to bring up the fact that this is unknown territory.
Finally, all films change with time for one reason or another. I could give a lot of factors here, but some include oxidation of organics, evaporation, crystallization and others.
PE
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
Some color films seem to dry out or otherwise change--maybe it's the sensitizing dyes evaporating--from the edges inward over time. I've experienced this fairly dramatically with 11x14" slide film that was over ten years out of date. The edges might be quite magenta, though the center of the film might be normal (I have enough of this film that it may be worth cutting down to a smaller format). I could get a better result in terms of the magenta falloff by doubling exposure and telling the lab to pull one stop, but that yields a lower contrast result--still usable under the right lighting conditions.
An assessment test I could do is an Ansel Adams test for film speed he outlines in his book "The Negative". Here he suggests a ZONE I density of 0.1 above film base plus fog. I use 0.15 for the red layer (which is the thinnest layer) because I want to be assured of a little bit more detail in the shadows. I suspect as the film ages, the fog part of the film base plus fog will get thicker do to background radiation requiring me to use slower ISOs to ensure a 0.15 net density at Zone I. This would be an excellent assessment test unless someone can punch a hole in this logic.
Another assessment test could be to measure the slope of of the characteristic curve to see what changes may occur. Steeper slopes would reduce the latitude of the film while shallower slopes would increase the latitude of the slope. I would need to be aware of this so that I would know what placements would be compromised as I made my exposure.
Another assessment test would be determining if color shifts were occurring. This would show up when I built the characteristic curve. The RGB layers would start to move relative to one another. I could then rebuild the curve with a correction filter. For example if the red layer was starting to shallow out relative to the other layers I could shoot with very slight red filter in place to add density and increase its slope.
So basically my assessment tests would boil down to an AA ISO test and building a characteristic curve each year and watch for changes as time goes on. Can anyone think of anything else?
Another assessment test could be to measure the slope of of the characteristic curve to see what changes may occur. Steeper slopes would reduce the latitude of the film while shallower slopes would increase the latitude of the slope. I would need to be aware of this so that I would know what placements would be compromised as I made my exposure.
Another assessment test would be determining if color shifts were occurring. This would show up when I built the characteristic curve. The RGB layers would start to move relative to one another. I could then rebuild the curve with a correction filter. For example if the red layer was starting to shallow out relative to the other layers I could shoot with very slight red filter in place to add density and increase its slope.
So basically my assessment tests would boil down to an AA ISO test and building a characteristic curve each year and watch for changes as time goes on. Can anyone think of anything else?
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David, the Kodak guy told me that if I did not break the seal of the package the film was shipped in, then any deterioration should be relatively uniform in nature. Was your 11x14 package seal compromised in any way?
I routinely vacuum seal boxes of open film before returning them to the freezer. No problems as of yet. You can only remove so much air before the empty space in the box gets crushed, then you have a box with broken corners that'll never be the same. It does keep out moisture though.
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
I think that test was from an open box, but I have some sealed boxes, so when I next have a reason to shoot 11x14" color, I'll test a sheet from a sealed box first.
Wildbill, what kind of a vacuum sealer do you have? Where do you get your bags?
Once the seal is broken, you will generally see deterioration uniformly on the top sheet and in from the edges on middle and bottom sheets. Something is either entering or leaving depending on the film type. I had a partially used packet of 25 sheets of color interneg film that varied in color balance across the sheets and the top sheet was totally fogged cyan (red layer).
Based on some experience, vacuum sealing may halt it for the short term, but may have the opposite effect in the long term. No tests have been run to test this all.
PE
While the lion's share of this concerns discussion of sheet film packs, I will nevertheless offer my long-term storage solution, as unscientific and homemade as it is:
All my film -- 120/220 in original packaging and 135, some of it not in original canisters though in canisters now -- is stored in a typical self-defrosting freezer. What I do is have all the film held inside a 3-litre Rubbermaid-style drinking container (for making juices or lemonade, I guess), lined with aluminum foil (as a preventive layer to curtail any accidental light exposure, as it were). I pack the container's spaces with those tiny silica gel packs to prevent moisture levels from outside the container (which, while sealed, is hardly perfect) from raising the humidity too high within.
Whether any or all of this works is unknown, but it can't be worse than leaving it out in the fridge or similar. Cosmic rays will do what they do, but hopefully this is enough to protect from other deterioration factors.
Similarly, I have some shot, but unprocessed film from the late 90s in a separate, though smaller container. So far, none of that batch which I've processed have come out poorly, but I guess results may vary. And I hope we don't end up with another August 14, 2003, power outage, but I guess that's a risk to this all.
All my film -- 120/220 in original packaging and 135, some of it not in original canisters though in canisters now -- is stored in a typical self-defrosting freezer. What I do is have all the film held inside a 3-litre Rubbermaid-style drinking container (for making juices or lemonade, I guess), lined with aluminum foil (as a preventive layer to curtail any accidental light exposure, as it were). I pack the container's spaces with those tiny silica gel packs to prevent moisture levels from outside the container (which, while sealed, is hardly perfect) from raising the humidity too high within.
Whether any or all of this works is unknown, but it can't be worse than leaving it out in the fridge or similar. Cosmic rays will do what they do, but hopefully this is enough to protect from other deterioration factors.
Similarly, I have some shot, but unprocessed film from the late 90s in a separate, though smaller container. So far, none of that batch which I've processed have come out poorly, but I guess results may vary. And I hope we don't end up with another August 14, 2003, power outage, but I guess that's a risk to this all.
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I would like to thank all of you for your thoughtful and most helpful comments. Lets hope that we never have to resort to buying and maintaining a lifetime supply of film.
If they stop making film in ten years, how will you get your stash processed ? , because by that time the film processors will have ceased film processing, and the chemistry and paper for home processing will no longer be produced.
Speaking for myself, I'm just going to carry on as long as film is available, and just hope at my age it outlives me , if not I'll hang up my cameras after shooting film for more than fifty years, and find some other creative persuit for the rest of my life.
Speaking for myself, I'm just going to carry on as long as film is available, and just hope at my age it outlives me , if not I'll hang up my cameras after shooting film for more than fifty years, and find some other creative persuit for the rest of my life.
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Hi Ben,
Many people who have digital cameras do not bother printing there own images. They simple send them to a lab which uses RA-4 papers and chemistry to make prints, and that is what I use. So I suspect color chromogenic papers will be with us for a long time.
As for C-41 film chemicals goes, I can mix those from scratch. I have the formulas and have places where I can purchase the chemistry. So that will not be a problem, only a slight inconvenience.
Thus, the real problem is with long term storage of C-41 color negative film and what that means.
Many people who have digital cameras do not bother printing there own images. They simple send them to a lab which uses RA-4 papers and chemistry to make prints, and that is what I use. So I suspect color chromogenic papers will be with us for a long time.
As for C-41 film chemicals goes, I can mix those from scratch. I have the formulas and have places where I can purchase the chemistry. So that will not be a problem, only a slight inconvenience.
Thus, the real problem is with long term storage of C-41 color negative film and what that means.
How would a standard freezer compared at a lab-grade deep freeze for long term? IIRC even the least expensive (least being relative) go down to -50 or -70, provided you don't open it would it provide better protection or do strange things to the emulsion?
I have no idea. This whole idea of a life time storage I think is uncharted waters. Perhaps PE would have an answer for this one. Perhaps we need to call the Kodak technical people to get answer or maybe they do not know either.
An interesting note in this morning's paper, it was announced Kodak bought back a lot of its own stock. I am not sure how to read that. Does that mean Kodak is confident about the future of film, or perhaps it confident about its position in the digital market. If its the former then this string may have no merit. If it is the latter then this string is relavent.
An interesting note in this morning's paper, it was announced Kodak bought back a lot of its own stock. I am not sure how to read that. Does that mean Kodak is confident about the future of film, or perhaps it confident about its position in the digital market. If its the former then this string may have no merit. If it is the latter then this string is relavent.
Yeah, Steve, I guess it simply means that Kodak regards its own stock as significantly undervalued. Perhaps they are anticipating a merger of some sort.... or perhaps spinning off their film sector, which I suppose might actually boost their other sectors (sad but probably true).
Kodak is positioned to spin off any unit it wishes, from what I read in the papers. I know nothing more.
But, why spin off a unit that is bringing in 1/2 of your income and which is very profitable due to the % profit involved vs digital. Profit margins in digital products is tiny compared to film which are "normal".
Buying back product can be the result of any number of things, and I would not care to speculate except that due to the prices on E-bay, maybe Kodak is going to have a 'sale'!
PE
But, why spin off a unit that is bringing in 1/2 of your income and which is very profitable due to the % profit involved vs digital. Profit margins in digital products is tiny compared to film which are "normal".
Buying back product can be the result of any number of things, and I would not care to speculate except that due to the prices on E-bay, maybe Kodak is going to have a 'sale'!
PE
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I've already said it at the beginning of the thread. There is definitely no need to stock up film for the next ten years. Due to official data there is increasing cine film production every year since 1999. The sales of professional photo film are solid (Kodak) or increasing (Fuji). Microfilm production is increasing as well. Surveillance film sales are quite solid.
Don't worry, buy film and enjoy it.
Regards,
Jana
Hi Jana,
At the photo 3 conference the representatives for Ilford, Fuji, and Kodak sat at table and hosted a discussion about the future of film. They did not paint a rosy picture for the future for film. Perhaps the CEO of Kodak has to say good things otherwise he could send his stock into a tailspin. However, the fact that Kodak has bought a lot of its own stock would seem to support your more optimistic position.
I have an older chest freezer that is NOT frost free. My intent is to buy 15 boxes each having 10 sheets of 8x10 Portra 160 VC with the same expiration date. I can then cut a box down to 40 sheets of 4x5 for testing. Each year I will pull one box from this stock for the next 15 years a run a suite of test on it and record any changes that may occur as the film ages. This will proved myself and anyone who wants to know what happens to film as it ages.
I also intend to keep a rotating stock of 45 boxes of this film. Each year I will purchase 15 boxes of new film, date it, and store it in the freezer. I will then pull 15 boxes of older film from this stock to use for that year. This will give a small jump on obtaining a lifetime supply of film should Kodak decide to go elsewhere or discontinue this film.
At the photo 3 conference the representatives for Ilford, Fuji, and Kodak sat at table and hosted a discussion about the future of film. They did not paint a rosy picture for the future for film. Perhaps the CEO of Kodak has to say good things otherwise he could send his stock into a tailspin. However, the fact that Kodak has bought a lot of its own stock would seem to support your more optimistic position.
I have an older chest freezer that is NOT frost free. My intent is to buy 15 boxes each having 10 sheets of 8x10 Portra 160 VC with the same expiration date. I can then cut a box down to 40 sheets of 4x5 for testing. Each year I will pull one box from this stock for the next 15 years a run a suite of test on it and record any changes that may occur as the film ages. This will proved myself and anyone who wants to know what happens to film as it ages.
I also intend to keep a rotating stock of 45 boxes of this film. Each year I will purchase 15 boxes of new film, date it, and store it in the freezer. I will then pull 15 boxes of older film from this stock to use for that year. This will give a small jump on obtaining a lifetime supply of film should Kodak decide to go elsewhere or discontinue this film.
Hi, Steve, I personally don't worry about storing my film stock for the next ten years, I'm happy if I live until the expiry date on my current films.
Hey Ben, I like the courage in your humor.
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