Developing 16mm motion film

[toresbe]

Hello! I recently found an Arriflex 16BL in a dumpster behind the last Norwegian motion film lab which recently shut down and moved most of its equipment to Denmark. Now, this is a very, very nice camera, so I decided to do my first testing of motion film. I bought a 100ft roll of Fomapan 100R from fomafoto.no and exposed it. Now my problem is development. I suppose I would have shelled out for commercial development of this film, but there isn't any available to my knowledge for this B&W reversal process, so I have to do it myself - besides, commercial development 100ft at a time is expensive...!

Chemically this is not a challenge - fomafoto.no sells the development chemistry - but mechanically, developing 100ft of film - somewhat evenly, preferably - is not trivial. I am aware of a LOMO tank, which has been popping up from time to time on eBay at frightening price levels. (If there's anyone in Norway reading this with one of these tanks or similar, for the love of nitrate -- drop me a line!)

Me and some friends of mine have been playing with the idea of making a general, six-small-tank glacially-advanced continuous-development system which might also in time allow us to develop film with ECN-2 and other processes (if I can get a hold of short-ends and such). Has anyone tried this themselves, and have they had any success with it if so, and any experiences or opinions to share with me?

TIA.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Before tanks like the LOMO tank and roller transport systems, film was loaded on racks. Imagine a large rectangular wooden frame with some extra dowels as cross braces and to keep the film separated, and the film would be loaded spiral fashion, emulsion side out, on the rack, taped at each end, and the rack would be dipped into large tanks for processing. A lot of old film has a kind of pulsing effect when projected, and it is probably due to uneven agitation with this method, though it is sometimes attributed to hand cranked cameras. But you can play on this idea. For instance you could build a drum with two octagonal or round ends and dowels running between the end pieces, and wind the film onto the drum, or you could wind the film onto the outside of a pipe, and roll the drum or pipe in a trough of chemistry. The open frame drum is a useful method for drying film, even if you don't use it for processing.

 

[toresbe]

Hm! That's interesting! - and I understand how that would work (calculating the corrected film development times would be an interesting task) - but wouldn't doing that be pretty difficult in the total darkness? Something tells me that way of doing it was popular in the days of ortho films...!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'm sure it would take some practice. You could put guides, like small nails, in the dowels to keep the film separated, sacrificing one roll of film or maybe using a roll of leader to determine the spacing.

Another option would be IR goggles.

 

[nick mulder]

Get ready to have a heap of chemistry for that method and oxidation issues etc...

The Lomo tanks are really the ticket - look at the development costs in sending it away, then think about how much you're going to be getting done and balance out the initial outlay (of the tank) with the ongoing processing.

Here's another way of thinking about it

Cost of Arri16BL = Lomo tank ? NO! heh heh - The one with the blimped zoom right ? 400' ? its a pity they are hard to modify to super 16

Anyways I've had 4 tanks of all the standard Lomo flavours - finally settling, which is to say 'getting' the 100' version (with no split)

Also consider how you are going to dry your film

Quite a few threads here and also at cinematography.com about home brew processing - even people making their own emulsions !

 

[nick mulder]

dang!

ebay prices have gone down...

Looks like various people may have found a bulk load of NOS and flooded the market - silly billies !

 

[Ian Cooper]

If you DO want to get it processed commercially, then Andec does 16mm Fomapan processing by request for an additional 10% charge, minimum 100ft (30m)

If you have any questions then don't worry about emailing, they're fine responding in English!

 

[toresbe]

Nick, thanks for that info. It seems you're right about them being the best way to get this done. I'm just hesitant to buy one of those tanks since - well, I simply don't have all that much money at the moment - and I know that sounds pretty strange coming from someone with an Arriflex. As far as I can tell, with the cheapest auction being 55 USD, the tank will be costing me at least 100 GBP by the time it gets here, with shipping and customs...

Ian: That company's sure to come in handy if I ever do more than a single test strip. Their prices are very good! Thanks for that link.

 

[Ian Cooper]

...Ian: That company's sure to come in handy if I ever do more than a single test strip. Their prices are very good! Thanks for that link.

I've used them in the past to develop B&W super-8 reversal (Kodak Plus-X), they were both helpful and prompt. Most of the retailers who offer 'processing' in the Uk for E6 super-8 also forward that on to Andec as well.

I don't know where you're located, but for non-Fomapan 16mm B&W neg processing "Nowhere Lab" handles 100ft quantities.
...and for ECN2 just about any movie lab in the world can assist!


Edit: Err, just reread your original post - I'm guessing you're probably located in Norway! Lol.

 

[ic-racer]

A number of places in the USA process B&W reversal. I have been shooting it in Dual8 or at least 10 years. Also, you can try 'bucket' development for the alternative look.

 

[holmburgers]

Something I'm wondering about with reversal processing in a tank, like the Lomo's and also for 35mm roll film, is the re-exposure process.

Doesn't having the film in a reel make for uneven illumination for the 2nd exposure?

I guess not, since people do it, but I'm just curious to hear some experiences.

edit: Also, how do the bucket processor's re-expose evenly?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The Lomo reel is clear to allow re-exposure. The film needs to be fogged completely, so the time isn't critical beyond the minimum. Chemical reversal is also an option.

 

[holmburgers]

Cool, that sounds reassuring. I guess it might be a problem in a normal stainless steel tank if doing 35mm still film though.

So overexposing the 2nd exposure isn't possible really?

 

[ic-racer]

edit: Also, how do the bucket processor's re-expose evenly?

Most certainly UNEVEN. Thats part of the 'experimental film' effect.

 

[holmburgers]

haha, i see. A clear bucket might help, eh?

 

[Harry Lime]

Hello! I recently found an Arriflex 16BL in a dumpster behind the last Norwegian motion film lab which recently shut down and moved most of its equipment to Denmark.

You found an Arri BL in a dumpster?

Holy smokes.

I've heard that Norway is swimming in cash, but that's impressive.

 

[nick mulder]

Nick, thanks for that info. It seems you're right about them being the best way to get this done. I'm just hesitant to buy one of those tanks since - well, I simply don't have all that much money at the moment - and I know that sounds pretty strange coming from someone with an Arriflex. As far as I can tell, with the cheapest auction being 55 USD, the tank will be costing me at least 100 GBP by the time it gets here, with shipping and customs...

Hang on, doesn't Norway border with Russia ?

Just wait a while and a Lomo tank will turn up on ebay much closer to home...

Either that or sell your Arri to me

 

[Athiril]

This pdf from Kodak may be of use... it also contains the ECN-2 developer recipe should you want to do colour at some stage... all sorts of things in there

Im building a tank from 2 pvc pipes, 1cm radius difference gives about 3.3l of developer per 100ft of film given 2mm guide tracks either side for the spiral to wind onto, developer can be scaled up, taller, or wider with the same ratio pretty much for longer rolls or 35mm etc, wind emulsion side out. After stop bath, remjet removed by hand, since it doesnt come off in developer this way.

I'll be using gaffa tape wound around the inner pipe, then cutting out the spiral where the film goes with a stanley knife



http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo...t_en_motion_support_processing_h247_h2407.pdf

 

[toresbe]

You found an Arri BL in a dumpster?

Holy smokes.

I've heard that Norway is swimming in cash, but that's impressive.

They threw away a bunch of other stuff too - four Barco SDI monitors, for example - I'd reckon that the shut-down was very much a rush job. Obviously the film lab wasn't swimming in cash, considering it was shut down and the equipment sold to Denmark. The last motion film development lab in Norway, gone... I feel sorry for the people who were laid off... not sure where else those kinds of skills are useful :\

Hang on, doesn't Norway border with Russia?

Well, I cannot see Russia from my house -- we have a border way up in the North but the distance between my home in Oslo and the border exceeds the distance between Oslo and Rome, IIRC.

 

[toresbe]

This pdf from Kodak may be of use... it also contains the ECN-2 developer recipe should you want to do colour at some stage... all sorts of things in there

Im building a tank from 2 pvc pipes, 1cm radius difference gives about 3.3l of developer per 100ft of film given 2mm guide tracks either side for the spiral to wind onto, developer can be scaled up, taller, or wider with the same ratio pretty much for longer rolls or 35mm etc, wind emulsion side out.

Thanks for the PDF link. Right now, as I said, my concerns are more mechanical than chemical, but I've come to realize that a LOMO tank is probably the way to go.

Re the series of tubes: Oh, that's very clever! Is there any reason why the ratio difference isn't less?

 

[bdilgard]

We had a thread awhile back on processing B&W reversal film as a negative. I just wadded my film up and processed it in a 1 quart SS tank. You would need a much larger container for 100 feet of 16mm. It works, but if you want nice looking results, don't use this method. It was also an incredible mess to untangle and dry. :confused:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Athiril]

Well I calculated the volume of that small gap using a 5mm gap from the outer tube to the inner tube (5mm radius difference), lets see...

100ft = ~30.5m

if my inner tube has a radius of 5cm (to the outside edge), then it has a diameter of 10cm, so the circumference is ~31.4cm

So 1 'turn' or revolution of the film around the inner tube is ~31.4cm, so I need approximately 97.1 turns (we'll just round it up to 100).

The width of the film is 16mm, and accounting for the 16mm height + 2mm guide, its approximately 18mm height average per turn (even though its a spiral), so thats approx 180cm tall inner tube to get the film onto.

With out an outer tube that has a radius to the inner edge of 5.5cm, there is a 5mm gap between the surfaces..

So subtract the volumes... pi * 5.5^2 * 180 = ~17.1 litres (17.106 cm^3) and pi * 5^2 * 180.

Ends up around 3 litres, I got 3.3 from earlier calculations by allowing some more space so as to not cut it to tight (eg taller tube), or I might have used 20mm instead of 18mm.. calculating for the guide on both sides.. before I realised, that adding it once does account for both sides being a spiral.


If we change the design to 10cm inner radius, maintaining the 5mm gap, it becomes.

~62.8cm per turn, 48.5 turns rounded up to 50. = 90cm tall tube, double radius, half tube height

After I subtract the volume of a 10cm (outer) radius and 10.5cm (inner) radius of 90cm height I get.. the exact same volume as before as the previous, pretty much on 3 litres, which is still more developer per surface area of film, then 35mm stills in 300ml of solution

So it's scalable to any size while maintaining the developer volume to film surface area or film length ratio.

I just dont think the design is friendly to short developing times (proper ECN-2 etc) due to the time pouring in and then removing developer etc, though that suits me fine.

 

[Harry Lime]

They threw away a bunch of other stuff too - four Barco SDI monitors, for example - I'd reckon that the shut-down was very much a rush job. Obviously the film lab wasn't swimming in cash, considering it was shut down and the equipment sold to Denmark. The last motion film development lab in Norway, gone... I feel sorry for the people who were laid off... not sure where else those kinds of skills are useful :\

I agree that it's a shame about the lost jobs... Good labs are becoming a rare breed.

I guess tossing gear like that isn't so unusual after all.

A few years ago I purchased a full 35mm motion picture kit from a local dealer. Camera, 1000ft magazines, full set of prime lenses, matte box, rails, follow focus etc. Beautiful Mitchell BNCR with a very high quality custom spinning mirror conversion. Dead silent and steady as a rock.

I asked the guy about the history of the camera and he told me that it came from a big Hollywood studio. He used to work there and serviced that very camera about 25-30 years ago. A few days earlier he had gotten a call from an old friend still at the studio, telling him that they were cleaning out the old camera storage room and that he could come by and pick up the whole lot if he wanted it. For free.

He ended up with 5 complete camera kits like mine and a cube truck of other gear. Absolutely amazing.