Developers choices

[RobertV]

For most developers more dilution will give more sharpness but a little more grain.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Tareq, these are some reasons why someone would chose one dilution over another:

1) Practicality. Some developers, especially when used in high temperatures (like 24°C) will lead to short development times. Most of us would rather keep development time above 5 minutes, because going below that may lead to uneven development. Development times shouldn't be too long, nor too short. When using very long development times, the temperature of the developer can drift and give undesired results. So, there's a sweet spot and a "sweet" dilution.

2) Grain/Sharpness. Most developers will change their behavior regarding grain and sharpness when used in different dilutions. Developers like D76/ID11, Xtol, Microdol-X/Perceptol, etc will give finer grain and lower sharpness (accutance) when used undiluted, than diluted. You pick what suits your needs. Most will opt for a nice compromise.

3) Local Contrast. While the negative has an "average" contrast, it doesn't mean that it is constant, throughout it's tonal range. Using the right dilution and the right agitation scheme - intervals, you can manipulate what we call the characteristic curve of a film. Some people may find it a useful technique and take advantage of it.

4) Economy. Not much to say here...

 

[TareqPhoto]

I see, thank you very much!
I am confused between the longer time and between saving more chemicals, as i really prefer any development time less than 8-10 minutes but longer than 5 minutes for sure, so i may go once with more dilution and once with less dilution, it is hard for me to tell about the grain or sharpness as you all know, but i will see some examples on the net if i can find for a certain developer under different dilutions and see.

 

[RobertV]

Developing times between 5-15 minutes are normally OK but too long can be also boring.
You also need to take care of the minimum amount of concentrate for each film.

For example: Rodinal 5,5ml in practice (official 10ml according Agfa) for each 135-36 or 120 roll film (same area) or 20ml for RHS/AM74 (1+7 till 1+19).
Which means in a higher dilution e.g. 1+100 (Rodinal) you need a bigger developing tank.

 

[Brandon D.]

You also need to take care of the minimum amount of concentrate for each film.

For example: Rodinal 5,5ml in practice (official 10ml according Agfa) for each 135-36 or 120 roll film (same area) or 20ml for RHS/AM74 (1+7 till 1+19).
Which means in a higher dilution e.g. 1+100 (Rodinal) you need a bigger developing tank.

That's essentially my logic.

I use a big steel tank that can use up to about 850ml. of liquid volume, which fits two 120 reels. Kodak suggests that we use about 100ml. of XTOL stock per roll in the tank. So, for developing two 120 reels with 850ml. of liquid volume, I have the ability use XTOL at up to 1:3 dilution.

So, just like you said, it helps to have a really big tank if you're planning on diluting. But, since XTOL is pretty cheap and since I like my developing times, I still use 1:1.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Ah cool, that is great to know, i will give it a try.

 

[TareqPhoto]

OK, i am here in our photography club, i did shoot 3 roll [2 Delta 100 & HP5+], so all are Ilford this time, and i was planning to shoot one more of Delta 3200 but the humidity is unbelievable so i ignored to do, maybe another time, and i hope the focus and the exposure on those rolls will be fine or ok at least, so now which developer i have to use for those? TMAX is no longer available with me, and if i have to use it then i have to wait weeks, before yesterday i did a big mistake and i bought Ilfosol 3 and i thought i bought Ilfostop, but i have enough Ilfostop anyway but i don't know what i can do with Ilfosol 3 as they don't return it, and i still have powders developers that are waiting [XTOL, D-76, ID-11, and Diafine], now which developer i should use for those 3 films if you are in my place?
I am sure you will tell me why i use different films as i should learn on one, yes i know, but the subjects i was shooting were not all at the same lighting conditions and i was using 2 different cameras and i needed to use different ISO[ASA], at least i have 2 Delta 100 to experiment on but i will see what i can do with HP5+, so any recommendations before i start any developing?
Let's say grain is not an issue for me as i like it grainy, sharpness it depends on my focus, so only remaining will be the tonality and exposure and grades of shadow/highlight[is it tonality?]

 

[RobertV]

since XTOL is pretty cheap

Yes, Xtol is a relative cheap developer (5 ltr. packing Eur. 9,00) and Rodinal also (500ml Eur. 12,00) and when I am doing Efke 25 in Beutler A+B (1+1+10) it's really cheap (1g Metol + 5g Sodiumsulfite sicc.) =A 13,49g Sodiumcabonate (decahydrate) SODA (Eur. 0,70/kg) = B

2x100ml stock is less then 0,20 Eurocts.

When making a Citric Acid stop bath 15g/ltr. so also cheap.
And a fixer working solution 1+4 8-10 films also cheap.
Wetting agent: Cheaper then cheap 1+200 - 1+500

Conclusion: Even when using a one shot developer the overall costs of (regular) chemicals are neglectible.
So why take the risk of a bad developer or chemicals. We are paying for good film and for expensive photo equipment.

 

[Brandon D.]

OK, i am here in our photography club, i did shoot 3 roll [2 Delta 100 & HP5+], so all are Ilford this time, and i was planning to shoot one more of Delta 3200 but the humidity is unbelievable so i ignored to do, maybe another time, and i hope the focus and the exposure on those rolls will be fine or ok at least, so now which developer i have to use for those? TMAX is no longer available with me, and if i have to use it then i have to wait weeks, before yesterday i did a big mistake and i bought Ilfosol 3 and i thought i bought Ilfostop, but i have enough Ilfostop anyway but i don't know what i can do with Ilfosol 3 as they don't return it, and i still have powders developers that are waiting [XTOL, D-76, ID-11, and Diafine], now which developer i should use for those 3 films if you are in my place?
I am sure you will tell me why i use different films as i should learn on one, yes i know, but the subjects i was shooting were not all at the same lighting conditions and i was using 2 different cameras and i needed to use different ISO[ASA], at least i have 2 Delta 100 to experiment on but i will see what i can do with HP5+, so any recommendations before i start any developing?
Let's say grain is not an issue for me as i like it grainy, sharpness it depends on my focus, so only remaining will be the tonality and exposure and grades of shadow/highlight[is it tonality?]

If I was in your shoes, I'd just use the D-76 for everything you're planning to do. Then, I'd sell or donate all of the other developers to my colleagues within the photography club. Or, maybe you can trade materials amongst each other.

 

[RobertV]

which developer i should use for those 3 films if you are in my place?

Well I am not in your place, it's hot here 32-35C, for Holland it is extremely hot

So to keep it practical in your case: Maybe you have to do with 45C
So I would avoid a big stock (in Ltrs) at those temperatures. I would choice a less critical oxydizing developer 1+1 for mixing practical: 1 part hot stock + 1 part cold water fridge) and keep everything in a big bucket 10ltr. of your 24C warm tap water and develop.
So ID11 will be a 1 ltr. packing, I would choose that. D76 (in fact the same but 1 Gallon/3,8ltr.).
Xtol 5ltr. and needs destilled water and maybe good under your conditions for 6 months.
Diafine: A nice push developer for e.g. Tri-X. E.I. 1250.

So I would put all chemicals in your 24 C tap water. Also to prevent any reticulation. (different temperatures of chemicals)

ID11 and HP5+ is fine so does Delta.
6x6 Hassy in grain is not an issue. You will mainly see difference in tonality between HP5+ and Delta.

Good luck!

Robert

 

[TareqPhoto]

If I was in your shoes, I'd just use the D-76 for everything you're planning to do. Then, I'd sell or donate all of the other developers to my colleagues within the photography club. Or, maybe you can trade materials amongst each other.

In fact i was also confusing between D-76 or ID-11 or Ilfosol 3[if i should try it], XTOL is not practical for me now, Diafine is not the one i want to test now, so it is between D-76/ID-11 and Ilfosol 3.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Well I am not in your place, it's hot here 32-35C, for Holland it is extremely hot

So to keep it practical in your case: Maybe you have to do with 45C
So I would avoid a big stock (in Ltrs) at those temperatures. I would choice a less critical oxydizing developer 1+1 for mixing practical: 1 part hot stock + 1 part cold water fridge) and keep everything in a big bucket 10ltr. of your 24C warm tap water and develop.
So ID11 will be a 1 ltr. packing, I would choose that. D76 (in fact the same but 1 Gallon/3,8ltr.).
Xtol 5ltr. and needs destilled water and maybe good under your conditions for 6 months.
Diafine: A nice push developer for e.g. Tri-X. E.I. 1250.

So I would put all chemicals in your 24 C tap water. Also to prevent any reticulation. (different temperatures of chemicals)

ID11 and HP5+ is fine so does Delta.
6x6 Hassy in grain is not an issue. You will mainly see difference in tonality between HP5+ and Delta.

Good luck!

Robert

You are right, exactly my thinking.
I want to use XTOL but it is large quantity volume [5Ltrs], so i neglected it for now, Diafine as i said above is not what i want to use it now.
D-76 is the versatile general purpose developer as you all or most saying so it maybe one of the choices for now, ID-11 is less volume and it is almost same as D-76, so i will see which one of the two i may choose, i will read the datasheet of both and see which i should go with now, just don't know how to store those mixed chemicals after making the working solution, and also for dilutions, i would like to test Ilfosol as it is ready liquid but it is not recommended over the others developers.

 

[MattKing]

I would try the Ilfosol 3, since you already have it. It will certainly be convenient, and you may find you like it.

The Ilford fact sheet gives reasonable time for the 1:14 dilution at 24 C.

In case you don't have it, here is the link to the fact sheet:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010229453745.pdf

 

[TareqPhoto]

I would try the Ilfosol 3, since you already have it. It will certainly be convenient, and you may find you like it.

The Ilford fact sheet gives reasonable time for the 1:14 dilution at 24 C.

In case you don't have it, here is the link to the fact sheet:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010229453745.pdf

Thank you very much, Matt!
Yes, i have it, and it is written 1:9 and 1:14, so you chose to go with 1:14?
I tested that Ilfosol3 before when i was in a workshop as they use all Ilford items [films, chemicals, papers,....] and i bought this Ilfosol 3 exactly from the only store in our area to sell Ilford items, they have only Ilfosol 3 as film developer and another developer for paper, and as i said, by mistake and i was in hurry i picked up the Ilfosol3 bottle instead of Ilfostop one, i bought Rapid Fixer as it ran out as well before the my TMAX developer, i worked before with ILfosol3 as i said and it gave me nice results and i liked it, for both 120 film of mine and 35mm from the workshop, just i didn't think about it because here most of you don't choose it over some more popular developers for more consistency.

 

[TareqPhoto]

One last question for now [sorry for all these questions], if will develop 2 Delta 100 films, is it better i use that tank which can take 2 120 rolls or i should develop each individually? In fact the tank that taking 2 120 reels is Paterson Super System 4, and honestly i don't like to use their reels, i tried before 4-5 times with very low success, while with stainless steel and JOBO reels i do it in seconds, i know all of you will tell me to practice, i did practice and never see i can do it in less time, even i take longer time each time i try it again, so should i try to it again this time or i should give up and better go with 1 120 reel of which i can load it quicker?
I have one roll for testing, i will try twice now and see if i really can do it or not.

 

[2F/2F]

This developer is doing fine except on HP5+ and Tri-X which I do not use.

What!? Are you a commie or sumthin'?

 

[MattKing]

Tareq:

Any of the generally recommended dilutions and temperatures will give very good results. There will be some differences, but they will be very subtle.

The biggest reason I would recommend the 1:14 dilution for you, is that in your circumstances (warm ambient temperatures), the greater dilution results in more convenient and repeatable development times.

As to the choice of reels and tanks, you should make your decisions based on what works best for you. If steel reels or JOBO reels are working best for you, then you shouldn't hesitate to use them, even if it means having to split your development over more sessions. If in the future you find yourself regularly needing to develop more than one roll, you can always consider looking for a larger tank.

What I was trying to indicate here and in my previous post, is that your circumstances and your preferences and your experiences are of primary importance when you make these choices. Don't worry about relying on them.

 

[Brandon D.]

One last question for now [sorry for all these questions], if will develop 2 Delta 100 films, is it better i use that tank which can take 2 120 rolls or i should develop each individually? In fact the tank that taking 2 120 reels is Paterson Super System 4, and honestly i don't like to use their reels, i tried before 4-5 times with very low success, while with stainless steel and JOBO reels i do it in seconds, i know all of you will tell me to practice, i did practice and never see i can do it in less time, even i take longer time each time i try it again, so should i try to it again this time or i should give up and better go with 1 120 reel of which i can load it quicker?
I have one roll for testing, i will try twice now and see if i really can do it or not.

It really depends on the purpose for the test.

If you develop them individually, then you won't have to go back out and shoot anymore test rolls in case the test fails, or turns out to be unsatisfactory. For instance, one of my next tests I'm planning will be Delta 100 exposed at EI 50 (i.e., trying to find my own "Normal (N)" development time for that EI). After I shoot the test roll, what I'll be doing is cutting the roll in half (inside of my changing bag) into two different segments of film. I'll load one film segment onto a reel for development. I'll store the other film segment in a film canister for later (in case I choose to do another test). That way, I'll have at least two individual tests in case the first test isn't satisfactory.

Also, it is usually recommended that we use both reels in a two reel tank even if we're only loading one of the reels with film.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Tareq:

Any of the generally recommended dilutions and temperatures will give very good results. There will be some differences, but they will be very subtle.

The biggest reason I would recommend the 1:14 dilution for you, is that in your circumstances (warm ambient temperatures), the greater dilution results in more convenient and repeatable development times.

As to the choice of reels and tanks, you should make your decisions based on what works best for you. If steel reels or JOBO reels are working best for you, then you shouldn't hesitate to use them, even if it means having to split your development over more sessions. If in the future you find yourself regularly needing to develop more than one roll, you can always consider looking for a larger tank.

What I was trying to indicate here and in my previous post, is that your circumstances and your preferences and your experiences are of primary importance when you make these choices. Don't worry about relying on them.

aha, i see.

Well, i just decided yesterday[or today very early morning] that i will go with D-76, so i mixed it with water at high temp as stated and recommended by some here [on chatroom], and let it cool down, i will use it and see how it will go, but not sure if i should use it as 1:1, i read somewhere also 1:3 but i couldn't find that dilution in D-76 Technical data sheet.

I think i better develop individually so i can see the result in one roll and if i like it i repeat it if not then i try to fix it for the another roll, so i better keep using the tank and reel that i am comfortable with.

You are right, i have to go with my circumstances/preferences/experiences more, as no one will guide or help me to do what i need or like rather than myself, i asked a lot of questions here and i've got the answers which is important and so appreciated, i am not worry at all about how the results came out as almost i liked all the results i had, better than nothing or so bad results, and i am sure if i print them i will have great prints as i can imagine, if i scanned and do little photoshop and got great results, then with printing it may do better job, if not then digital will serve me in this case, as long i got the images on the roll and i can see things nice against the light then this is all what matter, later i will worry about all of your talking about the tonality and zones and details and more.

I may buy few books about film, so i hope i can choose some good enough books for that, 4 books in my mind for now are the 3 books of Ansel Adams, and the one of Ernst i think [couldn't remember].

 

[RobertV]

What!? Are you a commie or sumthin'?

well, look at http://www.amaloco.nl
the original manufacturer of AM74/RHS where in the table HP5+ and TRi-X (400) is mentioned to be NOT optimal in this developer. For 35mm it gives a too big grain.

 

[TareqPhoto]

It really depends on the purpose for the test.

If you develop them individually, then you won't have to go back out and shoot anymore test rolls in case the test fails, or turns out to be unsatisfactory. For instance, one of my next tests I'm planning will be Delta 100 exposed at EI 50 (i.e., trying to find my own "Normal (N)" development time for that EI). After I shoot the test roll, what I'll be doing is cutting the roll in half (inside of my changing bag) into two different segments of film. I'll load one film segment onto a reel for development. I'll store the other film segment in a film canister for later (in case I choose to do another test). That way, I'll have at least two individual tests in case the first test isn't satisfactory.

Also, it is usually recommended that we use both reels in a two reel tank even if we're only loading one of the reels with film.

That could be a good idea, but i did another idea which i had taken different exposures for one subject on one roll, when i developed the roll i've got the different exposures, so i can choose one, and honestly, the developing was great because i can see the difference even without printing or scanning, otherwise i will not see the difference against the light, and honestly, from yesterday late or say morning so early after midnight to morning 6am i was in the chatroom here on APUG, i show mates there some of my shots from 2 or 3 rolls i did the last, all said that i did a good job in developing, so it means i really got what i want and did a good job but it is me who just don't trust my developing or think i did it not good enough, who knows, i may get surprised if i print some, and as you say sometimes, i can't tell until i print and see, so for now i will not make more experiments as it will be almost pointless without printing, just i develop following the conditions and the rules [temps, time, agitation, ....] and that's it.

 

[Brandon D.]

That could be a good idea, but i did another idea which i had taken different exposures for one subject on one roll, when i developed the roll i've got the different exposures, so i can choose one, and honestly, the developing was great because i can see the difference even without printing or scanning, otherwise i will not see the difference against the light, and honestly, from yesterday late or say morning so early after midnight to morning 6am i was in the chatroom here on APUG, i show mates there some of my shots from 2 or 3 rolls i did the last, all said that i did a good job in developing, so it means i really got what i want and did a good job but it is me who just don't trust my developing or think i did it not good enough, who knows, i may get surprised if i print some, and as you say sometimes, i can't tell until i print and see, so for now i will not make more experiments as it will be almost pointless without printing, just i develop following the conditions and the rules [temps, time, agitation, ....] and that's it.

Yeah, I see your point.

Ironically, I was cleaning up around my house last night and I found a bunch of test rolls that I have yet to develop. There were a few that I have developed but just haven't seen scanned or printed yet. I shot most of those rolls last year. But, I thought to myself, "I wonder how they'd turn out if I processed and/or scanned them now?" It would give me a good indication of how I've progressed since then.

So, if you develop your's now and if you don't print, or scan, them in for months, then that's fine because you'll still be able to do it later and look back to see what your skills were like at this point. You just won't be able to get the immediate impression/satisfaction of seeing the prints now.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

But you will not be able to tell if you are actually making progress or not, unless you have something to compare your results against, so if you don't have an option to scan or print for a year, your results could actually be getting worse, because you have no idea if you're doing the right thing or not.

Try to find a way to make contact sheets, or use a scanner (and without adjusting tonality for the individual pictures, make digital contact sheets), to see how you're doing.

That is the same reason why it's so important to not change materials around - you lose your frame of reference of what's going well and what's not, and can't realize when you're starting to maximize the potential of your film and developer combination.

So, if you develop your's now and if you don't print, or scan, them in for months, then that's fine because you'll still be able to do it later and look back to see what your skills were like at this point. You just won't be able to get the immediate impression/satisfaction of seeing the prints now.

 

[Brandon D.]

But you will not be able to tell if you are actually making progress or not, unless you have something to compare your results against, so if you don't have an option to scan or print for a year, your results could actually be getting worse, because you have no idea if you're doing the right thing or not.

:confused:

I'm not sure that you understand the context here. From the way it sounds, he's actually going to be taking a break until he gets his materials together:

i will force myself to work with one film and one developer, i know it will take time, and i will stop due to some reasons for few months [until November] then i will keep continuing.

So, it's not like he's going to be doing anything significant between now and November where his technique can actually get worse. What he's proposing is doing a little test with some of the materials he has, just because he has them on hand. What I was suggesting was that he perform his test now and develop it. When he gets back into this in November, then he can print the results of the test and pick up from there. Of course, that's if he's planning on stopping. My point is that he shouldn't feel discouraged from doing a test just because he's taking a break and because he won't be able to print it for several months.

 

[wclark5179]

This has been an informative thread.

Thanks Tareq for starting it!

I love APUG!

Have a wonderful holiday for those in the U.S.