Developers choices

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 27, 2010

Tareq,

With all due respect, you are over-thinking this. You're much better off just DOING than asking all these questions.

Do you want really sharp negatives and a developer that is good for creating contrast? Rodinal.
Do you want really sharp negatives and a developer that is good for brightly lit scenes? Xtol
Do you want less sharp negatives and a developer that emphasizes your highlights and gives less separation in the mid-tones? HC-110

The list goes on and on and on. The truth is that all of these developers also overlap each other. So you can compromise with almost any of them. Your technique has as much to do with your final results:
1. How you expose your film
2. What the lighting conditions are
3. How long you process your film
4. How you agitate when you process your film

Seriously, here are a couple of really great all-round developers:
1. Kodak D76/Ilford ID-11
2. Kodak Xtol / Ilford Ilfotec DD-X
3. Sprint
4. Kodak HC-110 / Ilford Ilfotec HC
There are so many good developers, and I argue very few poor ones, if any, commercially available.

Just pick one and learn how to get the best out of it. When you have used it for a good long time, you can start to experiment with other developers. Until then, it will be very difficult for you to truly judge what each developer is capable of. You might see tendencies, but most developers are capable of so much more than is visible by just using it a couple of times. They each respond a bit differently to changes in technique.

So pick one and go shoot a lot of film and have some fun. Process. Observe. Experiment with the variables I mentioned above. Learn. Be critical. Think outside the box. Push the limits and go beyond. You'll see what I mean.
The fun is in the learning, and eventually the results. But there are no free rides. Knowledge is scarce and as much as we love to share it, there comes a point when one just has to DO.

- Thomas

TareqPhoto said:
WOW, i love this forum, i can the answers very quickly and many so it will help me very well, thank you very much for that, i appreciate it.

Thomas, i quoted you post because in fact those question i should customize it before but i was late to do, so yes, let's say which developer is good enough [i will not say the best as many will say there is no best] for:

1. Finest grain [even low sharpness or no details, if with it is a plus]
2. Sharpest details [don't main with or without grain]
3. Higher contrast [regardless of the two above]
4. Better for tonality and shadow and DR and B&W grades

I know i have to experiment and test developers to come out which is doing my work at the best as i see, but it is not always i really care that my work is at best, best to me may not be best to others, and that is why i asked because i may print something to others so i should know the difference between the developers, and with all of your experience for 5 years up to maybe 100 years i can depend on most of your answers or experiences, i can't wait for about 10-20 years to find out which are my best developers, and meanwhile i reach that period it will be nice to see what you people found out so far, so if i have this film and use that developer and didn't get same results perfect as someone else using same film and developers even almost identical similar exposures then i can't say it is the developer or the film, it could be me, and also it may also saving my time to test one film and developer if i saw results on the net then i can get there if i like it, should i test 3-4 developers and 6 films to get similar or same result i saw it now after 5 years? and how i should use only one developer and one film for say 1 year and still it didn't give me the result, then i will spend many years as most of you did to test films and developers to have my favorite, but it is simply what i like is what you did already, finer grain or sharper details or higher DR all are fine with me, i care about the subject more than that final look result it came out, and i am not like you in that area where i can access to many films or developers to try and use, Rodinal for example is not shipped to my country [UAE], and i only order by online and all or most stores i use to order don't send this developer to my area, so i will be always limited in my experience than you, and also i may not do something correctly even you all recommend me one developer and one film to has the best result, so i have to know more details about different developers according to your experience, some variables can happen, but not always it will change all the results, if 80% said that Perceptol doing a great job, then why i come and said it is the worse developer i have used or i surprised why you choose this when it didn't help me much for example, but honestly i will tell you that i am new to film and i feel i am not that kind of guy who really go in so small details about each developer mechanism to see if it did a great job or not, and if you experienced managed to use one developer at best and got great fine art work and i didn't then it doesn't mean that the developer was not a good choice, it could be me, and most of the time i may do something wrong with great versatile practical developer then it is my fault, so answer the 4 points up and it will help me or shorten my time testing at least.

ALSO, i wish if someone when answer one point then to include a sample image, post the best sample image of the developer you used, because if you get 90% great results and 10% bad then you post one of the bad and saying it didn't do the job or it is not necessary the best, i care about 90% good more then 10% bad.

And at the end, forgive my ignorance.

ntenny · Jun 28, 2010

The other thing is that at this stage of the learning curve, what you learn with one developer will mostly translate to another. Pick *any* commercially available developer (based on convenience, or reputation, or because you like the colour of the package, or whatever), use it until the process is automatic, and then start asking yourself if there's something you want to change, and/or messing around with alternatives.

-NT

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

Thanks all!

Now which developer i have to choose: D-76? or XTOL? Diafine or ID-11(same as D-76)?
TMAX is almost closer to be run out and i used it with almost TMAX films and i think only 1 Ilford Delta 100 and all came out fine to my eyes [not sure if it is good and fine to your standard or experience as i don't print yet anything].

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

I know you may not into scanning, but this is the only way i can see my developed film so far until i can have tools for printing.

Here are 3 shots from one roll i developed 3 days ago, the first 3 frames of the roll, what do you think?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3812/img075l.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9054/img076n.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9941/img077j.jpg

Richard Jepsen · Jun 28, 2010

Thomas gives good advice. Forums like APUG help a photographer save time by educating each other on materials and technique. You don't have to try everything if you have good information. But its only by doing that you gain control over your materials.

I decided using more than two developers and two films would produce too many variables. After research, I selected two soups, XTOL and Rodinal. The two are different enough to justify using them and fit my subject matter. However Rodinal tends not to produce full emulsion speed and will depress mid-tones. I find Rodinal useful for its sharpness and compensating effect.

After trial and error, I use an EI of 1 stop slower for 120 Tri-X when developing in Rodinal vs XTOL. FP-4 does fine with an EI of 80 or 64. The Dec 1979 issue of Photography has a great article titled, Why 90 Year Old Rodinal is Still a Soup For All Seasons. The article provides recommendations on developing time to achieve changes in brilliance, gradation and sharpness to include time adjustment for different enlarger light sources. If Rodinal was not available XTOL diluted 1:3 is a good substitute.

If you are scanning, Rodinal may not work as well as D-76. Rodinal is not a general purpose developer. You can't go wrong with D-76/ID-11/XTOL. Each have only minor differences between them with a tilt towards XTOL in speed, sharpness, shelf life and environment.

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

Richard Jepsen said:
I use two developers, XTOL and Rodinal. The two developers are just different enough to make them tools in my kit. Rodinal tends not to produce full emulsion speed. For example if using XTOL 1:1 or 1:2 I use an EI of 250 with Tri-X. In the same light conditions and developing with Rodinal I shoot Tri-X at 200 or maybe 160. The Dec 1979 issue of Photography has a great article titled,
"Why 90 year old Rodinal is still a soup for all seasons." Very useful recommendations on time for different contrast and enlarger light sources. Also, XTOL is very sharp when diluted 1:3.

Aha, good to know that.

I think i will begin with different B&W film rather than TMAX films, i will try with HP5+ and FP4+, and i want to try Across 100, but should i use XTOL with those?

ruilourosa · Jun 28, 2010

there are some no mistake combinations, at least for most photography produced, there are bad combinations, but everything is a matter of taste, sometimes i use paper developer im my tmz, sometimes a monobath, sometimes apx25 and rodinal, sometimes apx 100 and fx1, most of the times i use pc-tea or d-76 or hc-110, it´s all about the looks you want, bad for some themes, good for others, allround combinations suit most of them without being too drastic in contrast, sharpness, tonality, grain and speed.

for a starter and not a really frequent user try tri-x and hc-110, rodinal or another concentrated long lasting developer and then grow up from the results!, do not be too focused on these, focus in your pictures

besides you can always tweak the time, temperature, dilution, film speed, agitation, (and add sulfite or vita-c) these things alone will give you very distinct looks with just one film and just one developer (cerainly you will not try them all in your lifetime)

RobertV · Jun 28, 2010

In a practical way if you can live with a powder developer for 5 ltr. , 6 months lifetime and have good water or use destilled water, searching for box speed and rather fine grain above films can be fine.

Personally I like the concentrated one shot developers due to an easy temperature control, long life time and an easy mix. So I am using Rodinal (1+50 - 1+100) for the slow speed films and Rollei High speed (AM74 Amaloco) 1+9 - 1+15 for some higher speed films. This developer is doing fine except on HP5+ and Tri-X which I do not use.

When doing Efke 25 i take the effort to make a Beutler developer and push the sharpness to the limit with this film.

A nice wide grey scale, tempered density and the sharpest negatives you can get.

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

I wonder than what is the lab doing if i shoot 5 different B&W films and send them all to the lab, they just develop whatever and send back to me, or they think about all those factors of sharpness, tonality, details, grain,....etc???
I was planning to send my B&W to the lab and let them do the job if they do that for long time, but the discussions here showing that they don't do any control to our B&W, they just develop to whatever it is and that's it, if not then i better take some film i really care to the lab as they do better job, they use machine for developing not our manual traditional method [some of us].
Until now it looks like that if i don't print anything then no need to experiment more or waste time on film, but i like the fun of film even if i will never print, so is that all discussion based on printing or doesn't matter if i will print or not?

PhotoJim · Jun 28, 2010

Labs tend to use one developer and one developer only. They want to be consistent and the best way to be consistent is to use the same developer. They also want to lower their costs and this also achieves that end.

You have the luxury of being able to choose other priorities, but at the beginning, I recommend using a single developer.

I used D-76/ID-11 only for many years. Once I got consistent with it, I moved out to other developers and I gradually figured out my preferences, but I still use D-76/ID-11 with some films. It is cheap, it is reliable and if used correctly, it is quite consistent, and it develops with good quality.

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

RobertV said:
In a practical way if you can live with a powder developer for 5 ltr. , 6 months lifetime and have good water or use destilled water, searching for box speed and rather fine grain above films can be fine.

Personally I like the concentrated one shot developers due to an easy temperature control, long life time and an easy mix. So I am using Rodinal (1+50 - 1+100) for the slow speed films and Rollei High speed (AM74 Amaloco) 1+9 - 1+15 for some higher speed films. This developer is doing fine except on HP5+ and Tri-X which I do not use.

When doing Efke 25 i take the effort to make a Beutler developer and push the sharpness to the limit with this film.

A nice wide grey scale, tempered density and the sharpest negatives you can get.

Thank you very much!
I like your post with a sample pic, it will give more idea of what you are talking about, also it will give me an idea about what i really look for, and i think it depends on the subjects, outdoors and landscapes is different than portraits and is different than still life and so on.
I will keep trying anyway, and still i want to have Rodinal because we live in hot weather and i don't think most chemicals will last longer i worry, Diafine could last longer, TMAX which i use now is doing a job and still can do more for 1-2 rolls i think then it is finished and i have to choose another developer, and i was using TMAX with TMAX films mostly and got good results so far, i can't remember if i used TMAX or Ilfosol 3 to develop one TMAX roll, because when i was in a workshop i printed one shot of that film and the result was very nice and satisfied, so is that meaning the developing was good or the printing was good? It was not easy to print and i wasted few paper cut in strips to get the best exposure to print for the shot, so i feel that printing is different story than developing, so if i got let's say normal developing shots, not so contrasty normal grain not much details maybe, can't i tweak something by printing?

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

PhotoJim said:
Labs tend to use one developer and one developer only. They want to be consistent and the best way to be consistent is to use the same developer. They also want to lower their costs and this also achieves that end.

You have the luxury of being able to choose other priorities, but at the beginning, I recommend using a single developer.

I used D-76/ID-11 only for many years. Once I got consistent with it, I moved out to other developers and I gradually figured out my preferences, but I still use D-76/ID-11 with some films. It is cheap, it is reliable and if used correctly, it is quite consistent, and it develops with good quality.

I would like to ask, what is consistency? How is someone get consistent with film?

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

So it isn't just getting good develop is all the matter, it is something more that that?

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

Honestly, i have to find a way to focus accurately first with film, then i will worry about developing and printing, until now it is difficult to get something really sharp and in focus with all film i did so far, so i will see how i can make my focus spot on first.

Richard Jepsen · Jun 28, 2010

Tareq

Rodinal with ISO 400 135 film will have grain and not be smooth. You can't go wrong with ID/11/D-76 and FP-4. Sharp with wide tonality. Consistency means to get the same results time after time. I read that Rodinal is not temperature sensitive but it is agitation and time sensitive. The easiest and best developer for a beginner to use is ID11/D-76/XTOL type. They provide consistency.

RobertV · Jun 28, 2010

and still i want to have Rodinal because we live in hot weather and i don't think most chemicals will last longer i worry, Diafine could last longer

Extremely warm weather compared to North Europe I think. So indeed oxydation will go fast and the hassle to cool down every time a stock of 500ml before using seems to be also less practical.

Maybe your tap water is the coolest you can get and maybe even 24 degrees C (??)
So maybe you have to make precautions for a tropical development which means a suitable developer over 24 C and a hardener to add in your process.

My Efke 25 example is scanned by a V500 (Epson) so limited in presentation. M7 + Summarit 2,5/75mm so 35mm.

RobertV · Jun 28, 2010

The easiest and best developer for a beginner to use is ID11/D-76/XTOL type. They provide consistency.

Consistency you can have with every developer unless you change every time one or more parameters.

D76/Xtol is a very standard type developer but maybe less suitable in extreme hot countries.......

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

RobertV said:
Extremely warm weather compared to North Europe I think. So indeed oxydation will go fast and the hassle to cool down every time a stock of 500ml before using seems to be also less practical.

Maybe your tap water is the coolest you can get and maybe even 24 degrees C (??)
So maybe you have to make precautions for a tropical development which means a suitable developer over 24 C and a hardener to add in your process.

My Efke 25 example is scanned by a V500 (Epson) so limited in presentation. M7 + Summarit 2,5/75mm so 35mm.

YES, very hot, i developed yesterday and hardly i can have the water temp below 24C from the tap, so i developed for that temp according to the chart or datasheet from manufacturer, it came out but i will not judge if it came out good enough or not, i scanned one frame and printed at Letter size [8.5x11"] for the kids and they liked it, I will not try to be so critique about the tonality or shadow details or sharpness of it, so i will keep trying to get better results in the future i hope.

Brandon D. · Jun 28, 2010

TareqPhoto said:
I would like to ask, what is consistency? How is someone get consistent with film?

If you use the same film and developer combo, temperature, dev. time, and agitation technique (and etc.), then you should always be able to produce similar negatives for most given shooting situations. You simply establish a developing method/system that you like. I shoot Delta 100 at EI 125, and I develop it in XTOL 1:1 using the same time, temperature, and agitation technique each time. For me, it has been so "dummy proof" that I have yet to fail at producing consistent/understandable results even though I'm still a beginner. When I shoot Delta 100 at EI 125 on an overcast day, I should be able to expect to repeat those results when I shoot on any other overcast day simply by using my normal developing methods.

From my experience, you get consistent by applying the mantra "one film and developer combo only" and sticking with it so that your technique becomes second nature. All you have to focus on is mastering only one film and developer combo, and that's all. The more confident I get at this and better I get at this, the less I want to use anything other than Delta 100 and XTOL.

Delta 100 at EI 160, XTOL 1:1. Just developed this yesterday. It was a tricky exposure because it was an extremely backlit scene. But, other than a little burning, it's pretty much a straight print similar to its polaroid.

removed account4 · Jun 28, 2010

hi tareq --

while i don't think there is anything wrong with using a different film developer for different situations
sometimes it is best to use 1 all around basic developer, like xtol, id 11, or d76 or a very basic developer like d23 ( 3 ingredients ) and one film ...
generally speaking, it will give you a better foundation / understanding of shooting and developing.
i wouldn't rely on a lab, the people there don't know what you want your film to look like, and you don't know how consistent their
processing is, or if they batch their films ( put a bunch of different asa's together that are "close enough" ...
most commercial labs batch their processing because they don't want to run the machine 2 or 3 or 4 different times )
... so your film may be over or under developed.

one of the biggest mistakes i always read about
is people using 5 or 6 different films and a handful of different developers
and getting upset because nothing ends up like they were told / it was suggested .

good luck !

john

ps. since it is really hot where you are, you might look into a "tropical developer"
that can withstand heat, and give you developing times longer than 5 minutes.

Ian Grant · Jun 28, 2010

Tareq, there's a great range of tones there

Like you I have no option this time of year so process at 24°C, going up to 26°C in the next month or so. The important thing is to keep all steps as close as possible including the washing.

Great image.

Ian

ruilourosa · Jun 28, 2010

keep a bottle of water in the cooler

i live in portugal and in the summer i get 24-27 ºc in the tap, i ad cool water to keep my developer at 20ºc, i find that negatives developed in higher temperatures tend to be a tad grainier, especially in low dilutions like rodinal 1+25.

RobertV · Jun 28, 2010

i find that negatives developed in higher temperatures tend to be a tad grainier, especially in low dilutions like rodinal 1+25.

Yes, Para Amino Phenol tends to get gainier on higher temperatures hence the best Rodinal temperature is 16-20C. But when doing this you will introduce a temperature gradient which is less consistent.

So the topic of this thread is more: How to make the best choice of developer in a very warm climate.
In the Netherlands we have now a temperature of almost 30C which is already high for our country. But the tap water is around 12C so for a longer development I can cool down easily. Further I have the option to postpone a week when the temperature will certainly drop.

Andrew Horodysky · Jun 28, 2010

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Tareq,

With all due respect, you are over-thinking this. You're much better off just DOING than asking all these questions.

Do you want really sharp negatives and a developer that is good for creating contrast? Rodinal.
Do you want really sharp negatives and a developer that is good for brightly lit scenes? Xtol
Do you want less sharp negatives and a developer that emphasizes your highlights and gives less separation in the mid-tones? HC-110

The list goes on and on and on. The truth is that all of these developers also overlap each other. So you can compromise with almost any of them. Your technique has as much to do with your final results:
1. How you expose your film
2. What the lighting conditions are
3. How long you process your film
4. How you agitate when you process your film

Seriously, here are a couple of really great all-round developers:
1. Kodak D76/Ilford ID-11
2. Kodak Xtol / Ilford Ilfotec DD-X
3. Sprint
4. Kodak HC-110 / Ilford Ilfotec HC
There are so many good developers, and I argue very few poor ones, if any, commercially available.

Just pick one and learn how to get the best out of it. When you have used it for a good long time, you can start to experiment with other developers. Until then, it will be very difficult for you to truly judge what each developer is capable of. You might see tendencies, but most developers are capable of so much more than is visible by just using it a couple of times. They each respond a bit differently to changes in technique.

So pick one and go shoot a lot of film and have some fun. Process. Observe. Experiment with the variables I mentioned above. Learn. Be critical. Think outside the box. Push the limits and go beyond. You'll see what I mean.
The fun is in the learning, and eventually the results. But there are no free rides. Knowledge is scarce and as much as we love to share it, there comes a point when one just has to DO.

- Thomas

Amen, Thomas!

TareqPhoto · Jun 28, 2010

Brandon D. said:
If you use the same film and developer combo, temperature, dev. time, and agitation technique (and etc.), then you should always be able to produce similar negatives for most given shooting situations. You simply establish a developing method/system that you like. I shoot Delta 100 at EI 125, and I develop it in XTOL 1:1 using the same time, temperature, and agitation technique each time. For me, it has been so "dummy proof" that I have yet to fail at producing consistent/understandable results even though I'm still a beginner. When I shoot Delta 100 at EI 125 on an overcast day, I should be able to expect to repeat those results when I shoot on any other overcast day simply by using my normal developing methods.

From my experience, you get consistent by applying the mantra "one film and developer combo only" and sticking with it so that your technique becomes second nature. All you have to focus on is mastering only one film and developer combo, and that's all. The more confident I get at this and better I get at this, the less I want to use anything other than Delta 100 and XTOL.

Delta 100 at EI 160, XTOL 1:1. Just developed this yesterday. It was a tricky exposure because it was an extremely backlit scene. But, other than a little burning, it's pretty much a straight print similar to its polaroid.

Nice beautiful shot, you did a great job, but nothing can be more tricky than our lights.

In fact i love Ilford B&W films even before i develop anything, but i keep shooting with TMAX film to practice with developing first, then soon i will use Ilford film which i really like over some Kodak B&W films.

Developers choices

Andrew Horodysky

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