Developer comparison: D-23 VS PMK

[retina_restoration]

I went through several phases:

• Try everything at once... wheeeeeeeee
• Pick a film and developer
• Shoot endless gray scale and use a densitometer to check everything (did you know that scrambled eggs is 0.9DU over FB+F?)
• Discover that the the Cool Kids (Adams, Weston, Picker, the local camera guy) all had favorites - try those
• Settle into what works into a manageable "blast radius"
• Explore around the edges of that radius

That only took 50 years. Working on a plan for the next 50.

Time well spent, I say!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Unless your objective is to digitally print the image, the point is NOT how your scanner or screen represents things, but how actual printing paper sees them. Delta 100 doesn't take on a deep pyro stain; but it is still a significant factor in highlight reproduction and enhanced edge acutance. You might be able to simulate that somewhat by scanning in conjunction with a blue filter.

I use Perceptol 1:3 to give a little more grain growth with TMax 100 for sake of improved edge acutance. If I did that with D100, the grain would come out larger than TMY400 in pyro; so what would be the point unless a little film cost saving?

PMK is my favorite developer for all kinds of films and formats, all the way from 35mm to 8x10.

 

[retina_restoration]

Unless your objective is to digitally print the image, the point is NOT how your scanner or screen represents things, but how actual printing paper sees them. Delta 100 doesn't take on a deep pyro stain; but it is still a significant factor in highlight reproduction and enhanced edge acutance. You might be able to simulate that somewhat by scanning in conjunction with a blue filter.

I use Perceptol 1:3 to give a little more grain growth with TMax 100 for sake of improved edge acutance. If I did that with D100, the grain would come out larger than TMY400 in pyro; so what would be the point unless a little film cost saving?

*laughs* So I scanned the negs for the purpose of making a simple comparison. I think we all know there's a difference between scanning a negative and making an optical print from it. If you don't think the information I provided has any value, feel free to disregard it. But there are some people here who think it has meaning for them.

 

[DREW WILEY]

This is just basic ABC's style information. Even putting a negative atop a light box and viewing it through a medium blue filter would help. Otherwise, the comparison isn't objective. I'm not stating that to offend anyone. It's just how it's done.

 

[retina_restoration]

This is just basic ABC's style information. Even putting a negative atop a light box and viewing it through a medium blue filter would help. Otherwise, the comparison isn't objective. I'm not stating that to offend anyone. It's just how it's done.

Because as we all know, there's only one right way to do anything in film photography. smh.

 

[Paul Howell]

This is just basic ABC's style information. Even putting a negative atop a light box and viewing it through a medium blue filter would help. Otherwise, the comparison isn't objective. I'm not stating that to offend anyone. It's just how it's done.

Maybe in a pro lab, but for the rest of us we work with what we got. One thing I've learned over the last 60s in photography, One Size Does Not Fit All.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, if proving nothing is the point you're trying to prove.....

 

[retina_restoration]

Well, if proving nothing is the point you're trying to prove.....

You wade into every discussion with the certainty of a master, yet offer little more than sneers and stale opinion. You criticize with confidence, but alas, all you truly master is the art of being disagreeable.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Does the pyro stain factor in acutance or doesn't it? It's that simple. Yes it does; so why not include the effect in your alleged test?

 

[retina_restoration]

Does the pyro stain factor in acutance or doesn't it? It's that simple. Yes it does; so why not include the effect in your alleged test?

Your ability to invalidate someone’s contribution with a single, calculated adjective ("alleged") is efficient to the point of clinical. It suggests not discernment, but a practiced indifference to anything outside your own authority.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just a suggestion, if that bothers you less. Try it or not.

 

[dcy]

I was hinting at an ongoing thread where a beginner is losing sleep on whether they should prefer D23 to D76. A test like yours above should put to rest the idea that playing with developers will make a huge difference in one's photography.

Did somebody say my name?

That thread was not me asking whether I should prefer D23 or D76. What I asked is if there's even a difference that matters. I said I'd rather just use D23. It was the members of this forum that keep tugging me to try one thing or another. I never once asked what B&W developer to use, but various members recommended that I try D23, MyTol, D76 1+1, and D76 stock and often disagreed with each other on what I should be using. I was happy with what I had. I just wanted to understand things better. It was the insistence of this forum that made me get more stuff.

Seeing @retina_restoration 's comparison, I'm not sure I can even see any difference at all.

 

[ags2mikon]

Using the web to show differences does have its limits, but 10 years ago I did a similar test with PMK and d-23 1:3 on 120 film and came up with the same conclusions. There wasn't much difference. So I just kept using d-23. It is simple and reliable.

 

[dcy]

Yes This!

As I said to @albireo , I never once asked what B&W developer to use.

I was happy with the B&W developers I had. My questions were about trying to learn about the development process. It was the members of this forum that bombarded me with recommendations to try other developers, and if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do? Ignore them? Then I am the noob who won't listen to advice. So I tried to listen to advice. You guys setup an impossible conundrum. Different members recommended that I try D23, D76 1+1, D76 stock, and MyTol, often disagreeing with each other, and when I made an effort to take the recommendations seriously, I'm suddenly the noob that is losing sleep over what developer to use.

 

[Craig]

You wade into every discussion with the certainty of a master, yet offer little more than sneers and stale opinion. You criticize with confidence, but alas, all you truly master is the art of being disagreeable.

This is one reason I find the "ignore user" function very useful.

 

[Craig]

I'm suddenly the noob that is losing sleep over what developer to use.

Don't lose sleep, use whatever gives you the results you like and works for your workflow.

If you like, try some tests of photographing the same thing on the same type of film and develop it in different developers and see if you can notice a difference.

I personally like prepackaged developers and I find Ilford Microphen gives results I like with HP5 and I can buy it at my local camera store. So I use it, as well as ID-11, as I can get a time for any film in ID-11 (or D76, they are functionally the same).

I've never used D23 and I have no intentions of ever trying it because I don't want to mix from bulk chemicals. But as the cool kids say, you do you. We all have different priorities and standards.

 

[GregY]

As I said to @albireo , I never once asked what B&W developer to use.

I was happy with the B&W developers I had. My questions were about trying to learn about the development process. It was the members of this forum that bombarded me with recommendations to try other developers, and if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do? Ignore them? Then I am the noob who won't listen to advice. So I tried to listen to advice. You guys setup an impossible conundrum. Different members recommended that I try D23, D76 1+1, D76 stock, and MyTol, often disagreeing with each other, and when I made an effort to take the recommendations seriously, I'm suddenly the noob that is losing sleep over what developer to use.

D, the internet is a murky place. If you ask for opinions, you have no idea of the background or experience ...& therefore the validity of the answers you're getting.
"It was the insistence of this forum that made me get more stuff." (The devil made me do it ?)
I'm sure Las Cruces has a library. There is a long list of well researched, well written books......before i bow out, i'll make one last recommendation. Ansel Adams 3 volume tome The Camera, The Negative, The Print....lots of valuable stuff stored in those three books.

 

[Paul Howell]

As I said to @albireo , I never once asked what B&W developer to use.

I was happy with the B&W developers I had. My questions were about trying to learn about the development process. It was the members of this forum that bombarded me with recommendations to try other developers, and if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do? Ignore them? Then I am the noob who won't listen to advice. So I tried to listen to advice. You guys setup an impossible conundrum. Different members recommended that I try D23, D76 1+1, D76 stock, and MyTol, often disagreeing with each other, and when I made an effort to take the recommendations seriously, I'm suddenly the noob that is losing sleep over what developer to use.

This is the nature of the beast, everyone has an answer that is mostly right depending on so many factors. With modern films the difference between developers can be large or in most cases small. I do see some differences between the scans OP did of D23 and PMK. but not enough to go and buy either. The fact that Kodak Alris is marketing HC 110, D76 and Xtol which along with Tmax Developer are the newest, indicates that buyers still like HC 110 and D76 on the market, then there is Rodinal, very old develper still kicking in one from or another. Try a few differnt developers with a couple of film stocks and see what foats your boat. In terms of D23 vs. PMK, D23 is easy to mix, can be made in small quainties. PMK, if you like the tones of the scan over D23 then try some. Problem is that they are all good, it like asking what is a better car Ford or Chevy. Both are good, for many a matter of emotional attachment to a brand rather than a functional differance.

 

[Yezishu]

As I said to @albireo , I never once asked what B&W developer to use.

I was happy with the B&W developers I had. My questions were about trying to learn about the development process. It was the members of this forum that bombarded me with recommendations to try other developers, and if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do? Ignore them? Then I am the noob who won't listen to advice. So I tried to listen to advice. You guys setup an impossible conundrum. Different members recommended that I try D23, D76 1+1, D76 stock, and MyTol, often disagreeing with each other, and when I made an effort to take the recommendations seriously, I'm suddenly the noob that is losing sleep over what developer to use.

I don't have enough expertise to engage in the detailed comparisons and discussions in the OP here, as this requires years of practical experience. I extend my respect for this.

However, I can recommend some books on the development process. Besides Ansel Adams' works mentioned earlier, consider "Photographic Chemicals and Chemistry" by J. Southworth, "Photographic Chemistry" by Pierre Glafkides, and "Photographic Chemistry" by Shinichi Kikuchi. These books offer theoretical insights into the development process, such as the general use of sodium sulfite or the effective pH for hydroquinone. While they don't provide practical experience or direct advice on choosing the best film or formula for specific scenes, they do offer guidance.

You may find that differences between developer formulas often come down to subtle variations in dosage, which can lead to some differences in effect but some times are also not significant. Especially among mainstream formulas, if D-76 were vastly superior to HC-110, or PCTEA/Xtol/Mytol significantly better than D-76, one would likely have been discontinued or forgotten (like D-51 and Amidol), but that hasn't happened. Even switching completely from Metol-hydroquinone to Phenidone-ascorbic acid might not necessarily make a significant difference......And if you've browsed through one or two Photographic Recipe Handbooks, you almost won't need to worry about how to follow suggestions—there are over a hundred pages of developer formulas in one old book, who can follow all of them? While each formula is considered unique by the authors and their manufacturers in past, I think I will only look for them when I'm very certain about the specific characteristics I want.

At my current level, if I can't perceive the differences, I consider mainstream formulas almost similar (like the metaphor above, Ford or Chevy? they all work well), at least for now. Future needs and practical experiences may change this perspective, but that's a concern for later. As many suggest, they're all good—try them if you have them on hand and choose the one you prefer.

 

[MattKing]

if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do? Ignore them?

My wife, who has a counselling background, tells me that "should" is a cognitive distortion ....
I've never really come to a definitive answer in my mind as to what that exactly means, but I can tell you that when you participate in fora like the one offered on Photrio, it becomes important to differentiate between recommendations that are enthusiastically offered, and definitive statements to the effect of "there is but one true answer".
If you were to add four words to that quoted phrase, so that it comes to something like "you should consider the advantages of using something else", you will find Photrio to be far more useful - at least when considering the question of general purpose film developers.
To a great extent, you need to understand the experience and photography of the photographer making the recommendation, in order to understand why they choose the subtle differences offered by their choice.

 

[MattKing]

The fact that Kodak Alris is marketing HC 110, D76 and Xtol which along with Tmax Developer are the newest, indicates that buyers still like HC 110 and D76 on the market,

For clarity, Kodak Alaris hasn't owned that business for some time. After a detour into ownership by the now defunct Sino Promise Holdings, the ownership of that business and manufacture of Kodak branded chemicals is now in the hands of a USA based corporation, Photo Systems (of Unicolor fame).
And by the way, they no longer call it HC-110 - they are using HC now I believe.

 

[koraks]

Did somebody say my name?

No, as far as I know, that wasn't the case. The two sides of the debate ("try as many as you please/can" vs. "stick with one combination for at least a year") have been around for as long as I can recall. This wasn't about you as far as I can tell.

if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do?

Then you're supposed to keep in mind that one thing recommendations on a forum will never, ever do: converge. Another aspect of forum culture (if you will) is that there's no way for anyone to impose their will onto you. This adds up to a situation where you'll be offered a smorgasbord of options and you have total freedom in deciding what, if anything, you'll take from that.

 

[snusmumriken]

It is sound advice and those of us who've done this for decades dispense it with good intent. But how many of us actually did this first starting this, I wonder ...

Not me. But I have very few worthwhile photos from my period of wild switching (‘worthwhile’ being personal to me, of course!). Once I simplified my choices everything improved at once.

 

[snusmumriken]

As I said to @albireo , I never once asked what B&W developer to use.

I was happy with the B&W developers I had. My questions were about trying to learn about the development process. It was the members of this forum that bombarded me with recommendations to try other developers, and if you go to a forum and people tell you that you should be using something else, what am I supposed to do? Ignore them? Then I am the noob who won't listen to advice. So I tried to listen to advice. You guys setup an impossible conundrum. Different members recommended that I try D23, D76 1+1, D76 stock, and MyTol, often disagreeing with each other, and when I made an effort to take the recommendations seriously, I'm suddenly the noob that is losing sleep over what developer to use.

Excellent, I like your style!

 

[albireo]

Did somebody say my name?

No?

That thread was not me asking whether I should prefer D23 or D76. What I asked is if there's even a difference that matters. I said I'd rather just use D23. It was the members of this forum that keep tugging me to try one thing or another. I never once asked what B&W developer to use, but various members recommended that I try D23, MyTol, D76 1+1, and D76 stock and often disagreed with each other on what I should be using. I was happy with what I had. I just wanted to understand things better. It was the insistence of this forum that made me get more stuff.

Hey, how about you drop the slightly patronising tone a little, and the victim attitude too.

People can read. Nobody said that in that thread you were asking 'whether you should prefer D23 or D76'.

You are under a cross fire of information. Your task it to pick what you think is good or bad from it, at this stage in your journey.

I or other people cannot try to push their views further on you, or try to invalidate other contributors' views. What is allowed, I think, is to gently highlight data or evidence that further supports their view (e.g. I am allowed, in my opinion, to highlight the comparison done by @retina_restoration as it aligns with what I had tried to suggest to you elsewhere, and I suspect it will be of help to you at this stage ).

You are free to take it or drop it, but chasing around people whom you perceive are after you because you are a 'noob' is a waste of time imo and I can't see anyone doing that atm honestly.