Despair of XTOL-R Death

JWMster · Apr 10, 2018

Matt: Thanks for the follow up. I'm disappointed about the accordion bottles as the weak point. I mean... sheesh! That's been my go-to container for quite a while. But if contamination is a higher risk with these, and I have to concede it very well could be given the shape, and if they really have air issues... that's two strikes against them. The experience of total failure is right up there as strike number three. But yipes! I'll be adding to the recycling land fill, and doing some replacements.

mschem: Very helpful. THanks! Especially the link to the bottle source.

Greg: Thanks for that tank photo. Saw that yesteday or early this a.m. That's a monster! and I'm not there yet. Glad it's working for you, and thanks for sharing.

John: Yes, I like Delta 400 and I like it in XTOL-R as well as ID-11. Probably like it in a lot of soups!

Ratty: Yes you know you're right. I just prefer to have stock that's already made. Clean-up takes time, developing takes time, and if I can split the rest of the time and minimize the set-up, that's just a lot more incentive to develop my own film. I know HC-110 does fine stuff. It's just not one I want to mess with while there are others that offer better with even a tad more convenience. And yes, this will probably help me eliminate plenty of other candidates... but I don't know all of that just yet. So I live in my blissful ignorance as ...what else? a happy ignoramus. And yes, by comparison, my dog's a genius, and tells me that all the time. But I'm veering wildly off topic here.

Let me also thank jnanian, Peter, Craig, Svenedin, and Sirius. All of you... thanks for your time, your input and encouragement. It helps more than you know.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 10, 2018

Craig said:
I mix up a 5 litre batch and put it in a wine bag so I can exclude all air. So far that has kept stock solution for 18 months and it has worked fine.

Same here, it’s been great so far. I use distilled water (if I can find it) or the most filtered water I can get to mix up the 5L at put it in a wine bag in a box, then bleed all the air out. It’s been great so far. My seasoned working solution is an amber glass jar that I fill all the way to the top then bleed off just enough to leave about 1/8 inch of air at the top to allow for thermal cycling through the day. I used to not leave the little sliver of air in the top and ended up with a glass bottle that popped, though that was when I was using my garage which is the same temperature as outside. I’ve since relocated where I do my dev to a local office space where I’m setting up a proper dark room and the temperature there is always 66-69 degrees. I’ve never seen it go below 66 and never seen go above 69. It nearly perfect for bw development.

JWMster · Apr 11, 2018

Hey John: Looking at those same bottles as my next step forward in darkroom. Thanks. Cheap and good. Good stuff.

RattyMouse · Apr 11, 2018

JWMster said:
Ratty: Yes you know you're right. I just prefer to have stock that's already made. Clean-up takes time, developing takes time, and if I can split the rest of the time and minimize the set-up, that's just a lot more incentive to develop my own film. I know HC-110 does fine stuff. It's just not one I want to mess with while there are others that offer better with even a tad more convenience.

I say this one last time, just because you place convenience as a high priority. I can process 3 rolls of film in less than 30 minutes, including all clean up time, using HC-110. I made one liter of working dilution using 18.7 mls of HC-110 syrup. It takes me a minute or two to hit 20 C using tap water. It takes me maybe all of one minute to add the syrup using a 5 ml syringe. I mix slightly with the thermometer, reconfirm the temp, and then start the development. 7 minutes later I hit it with a stop bath. 30 seconds later, I hit it with fixer. 5 minutes later I start my washing cycle. 10 inversions, then 15, then 20, 20,20. By that time the water rinse should be free of Acros' magenta color and I'm done. 1 more minute of washing with Photoflo and my film is then hanging to dry. 20-22 minutes of time has elapsed and in less than 5 minutes I can have washed my developing tank, reels, pitcher, beaker, syringe, and thermometer. Total time elapsed, 30 minutes or less.

If that aint convenience I dont know what is! You get fresh developer every. Single. Time. Premade developer has to be warmed or cooled most of the time, which takes much longer than mixing tap water to the right temperature.

By far the longest part of the process is the unloading the 35mm cassettes and spooling the film onto the reels. Doing 3 at one time can take 10 minutes or more sometimes.

Please pardon my repetition.

JWMster · Apr 11, 2018

Ratty: Actually love a guy who's firm in his convictions. My guess is that your set-up is much better than mine. I work in a basement bathroom with my Jobo on a cart. Got a nice sink, but the rest - the containers, dry in the tub or shower, and I have to pull things from here and from there. So I have a bunch of digging. More, I'm a relative newby at this game and as attested I'm surely not nearly as efficient otherwise as folks like you well practiced at the game. If it works for you, great. My time isn't much on set-up with the pre-mixed fluids. It's a couple of pours. Developing time is typically in the 9 minute range. And I wash a LOT... giving it roughly 14 minutes changing water about every minute.

And I agree that the biggest time sink is getting the doggone negatives on the reels. With me, 35mm goes on quick and easy. But shooting a lot more 120 rolls these days... those things are way harder to get on the Jobo 1500 reels. The 2500 reels were better. But the simplest of all - for everything - were the Arista reels with the nice extremely wide tabbed reels back when I used the Patterson tanks that liked to slosh stuff around.

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2018

Svenedin said:
If you like the results of Xtol and box speed but are now wary of Xtol-R why don’t you just use it 1+1 one-shot?

Because replenished XTOL is better than 1+1.

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2018

mshchem said:
One thing, I don't replenish when I use a Jobo rotary. Just way too much aeration.

I've kept 2L and 1 gallon tanks going, XTOL, HC-110 for years. Those damn acordian bottles are terrible IMHO. I understand your desire to have a nice seasoned tank.

I have used a bottle of XTOL stock, it was stored in a PET soda bottle. Color of a nice pilsner beer 11 YEARS OLD! I processed a roll of TMY2 came out fine.

I was shocked. It never ceases to amaze me how little air it takes to destroy a developer .

I have been using replenished XTOL in Jobo processors without any problems for over ten years.

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2018

RattyMouse said:
This is why I dont use XTOL. This is why I will NEVER use XTOL. The risks outweigh the "benefits".

I have never experienced the "XTOL risks" that you talk about, however I have been reaping the benefits for over a decade.

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2018

I have found that accordion bottles are not that great to use. When I buy one, I test it multiple times before I pay for one.

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 11, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
I have found that accordion bottles are not that great to use. When I buy one, I test it multiple times before I pay for one.

Do you play lady of Spain?

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Do you play lady of Spain?

The only musical instruments that I play are turn table, amplifiers, tape recorders, CDs, and DVDs.

JWMster · Apr 12, 2018

Let me ask this, 'cause I don't think I have: ARE replenished chems compatible with the JOBO process?

I've been re-reading through a series of threads followed originally, and see that even in J-109 the assumption that Jobo is identical with what Kodak calls "rotary tubes" is just not necessarily accurate. At no point in Jobo documentation (including John Tinsley's book) is there any mention found of replenished developers, and at no point does Kodak expressly refer to Jobo's processors. Noted.I'm reaching out to Omer at Catlabs to see what he knows, but I'm thinking much more conservatively with respect to care and exactness here as a rule.

We've done that here, but also allowed discussion without clear identification of the exact circumstances. So I see in many threads folks comment on threads about doing replenishment without referring explicitly to how they're using it. So they might be using a Jobo; they might not. But the exact circumstance is easy to elide one's mind into thinking that they are. And so I have to acknowledge that besides the accordion tube issue, there's been some sloppiness in my parsing of the literature here. SOoooo those of you who've clearly posted that replenishment and Jobo processing are both great, but not something you do not combine... .you folks have my attention. Thank you for that. For now, I'm considering that despite my interim success and ultimate failure, the combination remains unconfirmed. Of interest is a discussion between Ian Grant and Jay de Fehr on the science of testing a replenishment system to confirm the stability of the system, and I don't really have the tools for that.... which may be a ridiculously loose and luck dependent approach that is foolish to continue.

So I am shifting back to 1-shot for now in the interim as the rule with the Jobo. And this may push me to another developer not just as an interim, but longer term. Am I willing to go back to Pyrocat-HD? Yes, reluctantly, but yes if that's what it takes. I think Gerard Koch's warnings make this lower on the choice list... but we do what we have to. More later. Thanks!

MattKing · Apr 12, 2018

Practically speaking, in North America at least, rotary processing means either JOBO or (to a lesser extent) Phototherm Sidekick. Plus those of us who adapt other tanks designed for inversion process.
In essence that means that the table column on the Kodak datasheet j109 that deals with rotary processing using seasoned XTol developer is referring to JOBO processors.
All rotary processing regimes will introduce similar amounts of aeration.
Don't forget that inversion agitation also introduces aeration.
Dip and Dunk processors minimize aeration, as do continuous feed roller processors (where chemicals stay put and the film travels through them).
Replenished X-Tol is designed to work in all those environments.

mshchem · Apr 12, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
I have been using replenished XTOL in Jobo processors without any problems for over ten years.

This is important information. I have not seen any data on replenishment with XTOL and Jobo. I was replenishing C-41 with a Jobo, seemed to work fine. Then a fellow forum member pointed out Kodak specific instructions not to replenish Flexicolor C-41 using rotary Jobo. So I stopped replenishing any developer with the Jobo. I think I will start a 1 L "tank" go back to replenishment of XTOL straight.
Thanks for sharing, I don't like to waste perfectly good chemistry by dumping down the drain. I even have a full unopened bottle of XTOL starter. Contains KBr and NaCl. So I can start by "pre-seasoning" my tank
I XTOL

mshchem · Apr 12, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Do you play lady of Spain?

Myron Floren

mshchem · Apr 12, 2018

MattKing said:
Practically speaking, in North America at least, rotary processing means either JOBO or (to a lesser extent) Phototherm Sidekick. Plus those of us who adapt other tanks designed for inversion process.
In essence that means that the table column on the Kodak datasheet j109 that deals with rotary processing using seasoned XTol developer is referring to JOBO processors.
All rotary processing regimes will introduce similar amounts of aeration.
Don't forget that inversion agitation also introduces aeration.
Dip and Dunk processors minimize aeration, as do continuous feed roller processors (where chemicals stay put and the film travels through them).
Replenished X-Tol is designed to work in all those environments.

Makes sense, when these tables were developed Kodak was alive and well. I think there would be clear instructions, as there is for the C-41 process to warn against replenishment using rotation process.
I'm going back to replenishment, with the Jobo. I agree with Sirius seasoned full strength is nice stuff.

JWMster · Apr 13, 2018

mschem: Freund has a delivery charge of $200 plus for a $65 order. Yipes! Did you order direct or through someone else like Amazon? Thanks!

JWMster · Apr 16, 2018

Answering my own question: Seems United States Plastics allows smaller units for these items. Will try working there.

Peter Schrager · Apr 16, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Because replenished XTOL is better than 1+1.

Yeah but are your prints any better??
In all my life I never looked at a famous print and asked myself what developer they used
Get a developer get a film and stick with it
Then you get results

JWMster · Apr 16, 2018

Peter: Yes, I wonder this, too. Looking back from my current main squeeze, ID-11 (which I'd ordered sometime back but left in the box but am now loving!)... and compared to the zero zilch nada I got for three or four rolls (2 tanks) using XTOL-R (trying to figure whether it was me, my exposure or my developer, etc and not being certain). , I am now absolutely loving ID-11 at the moment. Yes, I can see some sweet negatives from XTOL-R, but .... heck, not knowing, Icontacted Omer at CatLabs to discuss the issues I raised here, and he suggested replenishment and Jobo rotation might not be the most reliable combo. Maybe so for some, maybe not for others.

Omer then suggested the only thing topping ID-11 / D-76 in a Jobo in his view is Bergger's Berspeed (and maybe Ber49). And as much as I've been able to see, there is absolutely zero data written by users on this... which he acknowledges and suggests it would take some testing. I went to the Jobo files on the JOBO USA site and re-examined all the docs for monochrome development, and saw a lot of folks just very happy with their ID-11. D76 has lots of fans, but in that small collection of articles, it was mostly ID-11 I think. So there's some testimony to KISS... which I'm willing to go with. Complexity might well be more inherent to replenishment than I initially suspected... especially I imagine if one intends to keep a consistent level of energy in the chemistry. Details, yes, but details that from a repeatability perspective sound to me as though they likely matter.

As to the knowns of ID-11 versus Bergger's products, there is comfort in following in the footsteps of others initially and then picking it up from the well worn trail from there. I'll admit to some curiosity about Bergger's products given the information comes from a source that presumably knows and works with the far more than I do. Note also that Omer suggested that Pyrocat-HD seemed less reliable in JOBO processing for unspecified reasons. This surprised me because I thought Sandy King (or someone?) had worked this formulation out especially for use in rotary processing.

For my part, I see less and less variance between developers and focus more on the images... the actual photography. I'm not sure the developer is going to be the make or break. Sure wish that it were that simple!!!! Yes, we should all try to use the best materials... but the best light, composition, subject selection, etc.... First of all, I want my pictures to come out, and after that's happening dependably, I'll worry about the tonal range.. I want the images to be reliable.

Sirius Glass · Apr 16, 2018

Peter Schrager said:
Yeah but are your prints any better??
In all my life I never looked at a famous print and asked myself what developer they used
Get a developer get a film and stick with it
Then you get results

Absolutely yes. The grain is finer. The edges are sharper. The negative is starting from a much better place. I have used the other developers and replenished XTOL is much better.

FujiLove · Apr 17, 2018

Peter Schrager said:
Yeah but are your prints any better??
In all my life I never looked at a famous print and asked myself what developer they used
Get a developer get a film and stick with it
Then you get results

Choice of developer isn't necessarily related to visual differences in the final print. I'm moving to Xtol-R because it gives me a tiny bit more speed, which I appreciate in certain cameras that I like to hand-hold and have slow lenses. I'm also looking for a developer that's economical, consistent and requires little fuss to prepare. I know there are no magic bullet developers, but Xtol-R fits my requirements very well.

mshchem · Apr 17, 2018

JWMster said:
mschem: Freund has a delivery charge of $200 plus for a $65 order. Yipes! Did you order direct or through someone else like Amazon? Thanks!

I have never had a delivery charge like that. Freund charges standard FedEx Ground Home Delivery, shipping is very similar to buying from Freestyle . Bottles take up space but I never had anything remotely that high. I will check in see if it's happening to me.

JWMster · Apr 19, 2018

mshchem: So I ordered from United States Plastic corp. (USPlastic.com) and received rather quickly: (3) 5-Liter containers (Stop Bath, XTOL, ID-11 mix up here), (3) 2-Liter containers, (6) 1-Liter containers, (4) 500-ML containers and (3) 250-ML containers. Plan is to keep 1 set of chems for B&W and 1 for color without mixing. Prices were very good. All are rectangular rather than round and HDPE with small mouth, twist caps. Very nice stuff btw. The accordion stuff is going off to the recycling center. Similar offerings, but these guys are set up for far smaller orders than the pallet size sales the other guys seem to plan on. Thanks for the recommendation.

Joel_L · Apr 20, 2018

For the last several years I have not been shooting much, but I still do on occasion. I changed from HC-110 to Xtol way back. I read all the concerns about sudden failures and kept them in the back of my mind. Recently I shot a roll of HP4+ and processed it in 4 year old Xtol, results were great. What I did was mixed the stock solution at double strength and stored in brown glass bottles. I purge my bottles with Argon after each mix. I've always mixed one shot at 1:3 ( for 1:1 end result ). Been very happy with Xtol, not worried about a sudden failure.

Despair of XTOL-R Death

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