Despair of XTOL-R Death

JWMster · Apr 9, 2018

Forgive my not wanting to sidetrack the other XTOL-R thread here, but as one new to this, my XTOL died. We held a funeral over more films than I care to count 'cause... well... I couldn't believe it. I replenished it mightily. But the doc shook his head, the priest read last rites, and the stuff got tossed.

I am now rather leery of XTOL, of replenishing, and all the effort and mystery in "What happened?" I have a bunch of ID-11 lying around and am using that at the moment. Ditto for a couple of boxes of Perceptol. I thought this wasn't supposed to happen. But there you are. Did I like the output? Sure. But liking it is second to actually having some.

THoughts? Here are mine:

1) The other thread mentions XTOL-R bubbling. Okay. I had bubbles out the wazoo. Didn't have the effects, but maybe that's an early sign of approaching death?

2) Maybe I need a glass container? Maybe plastic is still breathing somehow? Dunno. Soon as I switched from using one of the accordion bottles from B&H (Arista?) to a Delta Datatainer, death stole in.

3) Number 2 is particularly odd 'cause doubled the size of the STOCK of XTOL-R at that time with 100% new XTOL. Maybe my new XTOL was bad? That's an unhappy thought. But the fact that I've been able to mix ID-11, Perceptol and XTOL until now without missing a beat makes this possible, but unlikely.

So I like the XTOL results well enough to leave returning to this an objective. However, I'm inclined in the meantime to use up the ID-11 and Perceptol one-shot. What I like about XTOL is box speed. ID-11's matching that mostly so far.

Didn't think I'd be here. Oh well. If you have any bright ideas... love to hear them.

MattKing · Apr 9, 2018

JWMster said:
Okay. I had bubbles out the wazoo.

JWMster said:
Soon as I switched from using one of the accordion bottles from B&H (Arista?) to a Delta Datatainer, death stole in.

Sounds like a case of contamination to me.
Did you thoroughly clean the Datatainer before use?
Those accordion bottles can trap stuff you don't want, and can let in oxygen.
What did you use to increase the volume of your working solution - replenisher? That would be appropriate, but how was it stored?
How old was the working solution and replenisher?

Sirius Glass · Apr 9, 2018

1) The other thread mentions XTOL-R bubbling. Okay. I had bubbles out the wazoo. Didn't have the effects, but maybe that's an early sign of approaching death?
Bubbles in any developer is bad news, possibly contamination. Dump on sight.

2) Maybe I need a glass container? Maybe plastic is still breathing somehow? Dunno. Soon as I switched from using one of the accordion bottles from B&H (Arista?) to a Delta Datatainer, death stole in.
Not necessarily, plastic containers can have air squeezed out. I am not strong enough to squeeze air out of a glass bottle. The important thing is that the bottles must seal completely ===> no air leaks.

3) Number 2 is particularly odd 'cause doubled the size of the STOCK of XTOL-R at that time with 100% new XTOL. Maybe my new XTOL was bad? That's an unhappy thought. But the fact that I've been able to mix ID-11, Perceptol and XTOL until now without missing a beat makes this possible, but unlikely.
Doubled the size??? Does that mean that you diluted it? That is a No-No. Replenished XTOL is stock solution.

Peter Schrager · Apr 10, 2018

Nothing is worth the effort if you don't have repeatability...ive been using xtol now for almost 20 years and get perfect results all the time. I store mine in 1 liter glass jars filled to the brim...

Svenedin · Apr 10, 2018

If you like the results of Xtol and box speed but are now wary of Xtol-R why don’t you just use it 1+1 one-shot?

Craig · Apr 10, 2018

I mix up a 5 litre batch and put it in a wine bag so I can exclude all air. So far that has kept stock solution for 18 months and it has worked fine.

JWMster · Apr 10, 2018

Thanks for the suggestions.

Yes, the solution for a fill-in until I re-order some XTOL is one-shot with what's on hand. No, there was no dilution. I doubt surface contamination though perhaps that's possible. FWIW, as I pretty thoroughly wash my containers after every use and this is the one and only time I've had an issue. I do think that it is possible the seal on the container could have been an issue (not tight enough) or that the container was somehow air permeable. But all containers are cleaned before use and re-cleaned after. The XTOL-R mix I'd been running was no more than 3 months old. It's the 3rd replenisher mix that I suspect as the problem and I threw it out along with the whole mix. "WHen in doubt, throw it out."

Good to know that bubbles following a pour can be an indication of problems. I thought they were just an indicator of an issue with your pour. THey do settle out, but as much as they seem to occur on pouring, they've never indicated a problem in the past.

But my suspicion on reading over these comments is that a move to securely sealed glass containers might be opportune. Noted. Thank you! and I mean that.

removed account4 · Apr 10, 2018

hi skip
did you try the clip test ?
( scrap of paper or film in it ( with the lights on ) to see if it is still active )

good luck !
john
YMMV

RattyMouse · Apr 10, 2018

This is why I dont use XTOL. This is why I will NEVER use XTOL. The risks outweigh the "benefits".

JWMster · Apr 10, 2018

John: A clip test obviously would have been a good idea. And though I am unfamiliar with Sprint developer... it sounds like either an HC-110 of DD-X type in standard dilution. And I've no experience with Caffenol, Every now and again I look at trying D23 or DD23 in the 1-shot world... but resist going there 'cause 1) I'd like to keep box speed and while some suggest you can keep box speed, more suggest you don't; 2) it seems to be a lonely untraveled place and there is some comfort in numbers when things don't go right.... present circumstances as an example, 3) it's raw chemicals of which I have limited experience, but will say that the idea of mixing up powders and then just as quickly developing with them seems to risk some mix failure akin to my current issue - only more so - and the handiness of having stock solution might not work; and 4) I do like using a stock solution 'cause when you're ready to develop, it's a straight couple of pours, bring to temp, and you're ready to go... and I haven't seen anything on the shelf life of mixed D23 soup. So the homebrews... as attractive as their prospects might be languish as a big, "Hmmmmm" even though I do have a perfect gram scale.

I think the thing to do for now is as suggested, return to 1-shot at least until I use up the Perceptol and ID-11. But I've got to re-order Fixer, get a new short cable release and some other stuff, so whatever comes next is on deck. Didn't like the highly viscous HC-110 type stuff 'cause while it worked fine and I enjoyed the results from very high dilutions and extended times, I didn't like the prep process, finding a certain insecurity or guestimation constantly part of the process. The highly viscous stuff just doesn't run down into the measuring beaker with the ease that makes for high confidence in your quantities. Maybe I'm over thinking that... but others are easier.

RattyMouse · Apr 10, 2018

JWMster said:
Didn't like the highly viscous HC-110 type stuff 'cause while it worked fine and I enjoyed the results from very high dilutions and extended times, I didn't like the prep process, finding a certain insecurity or guestimation constantly part of the process. The highly viscous stuff just doesn't run down into the measuring beaker with the ease that makes for high confidence in your quantities. Maybe I'm over thinking that... but others are easier.

Ever try using a syringe? That is a super easy way to measure HC-110. It takes me an entire minute to prepare 1 liter of working dilution. I cannot imagine it being any easier.

HC-110 is a fantastic developer that frees you from the abject tyranny of replenishment.

removed account4 · Apr 10, 2018

hi again

sprint is like id-11 or d76 but different. ive never used 76 or 11 ... they say it is a direct replacement .. standard dilution is 1:9
and it is the darling of lots of schools and colleges. they also sell a speed fixer, and stop bath and fix remover ( a whole system ) ..
john

ps no gram measure for caffneol needed, you can sloppy meausure with a tablespoon .. and it works every time .. and 1¢/roll is pretty cheap

JWMster · Apr 10, 2018

Ratty: Yep. Tried a syringe. and still use if for Photoflow HC-110's highly viscous syrup in a reasonably high surface tension plastic syringe makes for a million year wait which is completely unnecessary and the results? Glass syringes - if you could find them (which I don't think you can), might address that issue. But I didn't find the results particularly startlingly worth the effort IMHO. Liked Pyrocat-HD much better, and moved on from there to Perceptol and XTOL as a way to get "safe", "good" and "easy" to work with. Now there's a 2-bath version of HC-110 Ralph Lambrecht discusses in his "Way Beyond Monochrome" which is worth playing with someday, but in terms of day-in-and-day-out, there are better and easier soups out there. I know HC-110 does a good job, and lots of folks love it, but for my effort, everything else has been easier, just-as-good, and/or better or all of the above.

FWIW, I was after XTOL-R results not for the stretch of the $... there are a lot easier ways to do that. But for the midtone "look", the sharpness, fine grain and speed. Not sure I got all that, but I didn't complain. That said, I'm sensitive to those who've posted here that the negatives can be a tad.... uh... "muted" by comparison with the rather contrasty negatives my round 1 work with ID-11 put forth. Trying to keep an open mind, but I do like the ease of pouring rather than mixing at the start of a development session. Handling counts for something.

John: Which caffenol recipe are you working with? And is it your everyday, or just practice, or specific uses?

All: Thanks again!

RattyMouse · Apr 10, 2018

JWMster said:
Ratty: Yep. Tried a syringe. and still use if for Photoflow HC-110's highly viscous syrup in a reasonably high surface tension plastic syringe makes for a million year wait which is completely unnecessary /QUOTE]

Odd. I use a plastic syringe and can whip up a working solution of HC-110 in less than 1 minute. Seriously, that's all it takes.

removed account4 · Apr 10, 2018

hi skip
i use the tablespoon method BUT
instead of using instant i bought
a bunch of green coffee beans
and roast them on my driveway in a wok
and use that to brew a pot of coffee to use.
i pretty much use it for my everything developer
everyting from 4x5 and 5x7 negatives any roll film
i find, even color film / slide film i process out as b/w
i also put about 20cc ( i usually say "a splash " ) of whatever
print developer i have on hand .. ansco130 or dektol or d72
take a peek at the caffenol cookbook i was one of the people there ,,,
also don't discount using something like dektol/d72 or ansco130 as a film developer
gives you nice snappy negatives, nice contrast, and ansco 130 will last about 1year as stock / undilute developer,
before i started using caffenol i used that ( originally thinking it was my favorite developer GAF Universal ) ..
pobably more than anything else .

mshchem · Apr 10, 2018

One thing, I don't replenish when I use a Jobo rotary. Just way too much aeration.

I've kept 2L and 1 gallon tanks going, XTOL, HC-110 for years. Those damn acordian bottles are terrible IMHO. I understand your desire to have a nice seasoned tank.

I have used a bottle of XTOL stock, it was stored in a PET soda bottle. Color of a nice pilsner beer 11 YEARS OLD! I processed a roll of TMY2 came out fine.

I was shocked. It never ceases to amaze me how little air it takes to destroy a developer .

JWMster · Apr 10, 2018

mschem: THAT may be the best note. Yes, folks noted this in my original course down this path... but maybe I just didn't pay enough attention. Dip-dunk processing with XTOL-R may be more what's intended. I'm willing to concede that and move back to 1-shot for processing in JOBO rotation. THanks for calling that back to mind. I lost some fairly nice pre-spring shots. I'll re-do those, but it puts me back a bit. Could possibly be that the rate of replenishment with rotation should actually be higher for it to have a chance. Might not ever know there without a real commitment to experimenting that's not the top of the list at the moment. Appreciate also the accordion bottle thing. Might be done there, too and move on to glass.... as much as glass breakage concerns me tad.

So I'm sort of wide open at the moment. Will have to huddle for the next, post ID-11 move. Like the ID-11 by the way. Nice negs with a tad more "snap" than the XTOL was giving me.

John Wiegerink · Apr 10, 2018

Skip,
There is no way your Xtol would "naturally" go bad in three months. There has to be an underlying factor here which caused it. I keep my Xtol replenisher in a "mylar not pvc or plastic" wine bladder and my Xtol working solution in a Boston brown gallon jug topped off. I've been using the same batch for almost three years now and couldn't be happier with the results and ease of use. I got a little curious as to the assumption that Xtol-R was much like Xtol 1+1 in terms of development and end results so I compared the two. I expose a roll of Delta 400, which I don't normally use, but had lying around, at EI 200. I then cut the exposed 120 roll in half and developed one half in Xtol 1+1 and the other half in Xtol-R using my times for Xtol 1+1 for both. I couldn't tell much difference in grain or sharpness, but the Xtol-R negatives certainly were more dense. So, at least from my point of view, the two are not the same and if I ever shoot Delta 400 again I'll rate it at box speed in Xtol-R. JohnW

MattKing · Apr 10, 2018

Skip:
On the subject of replenishment and rotary processing, it is worth noting that the Kodak datasheet includes specific recommendations for that choice (an entire column in the table).
For the working solution, your hard sided Datatainer bottle should be fine (if it is undamaged). I prefer a clear bottle for visibility.
If the problem didn't arise from contamination, I would expect that it arose from storage of the replenisher. If you were using accordion bottles, that would be very likely.
Several small high quality plastic bottles with high quality caps are an excellent choice for the replenisher. If I ask nicely, I can buy excellent ones from my pharmacist. The 350 ml and 500 ml ones are great for this.
As are high quality "wine" bags.
I'm leary of slippery glass.
Replenishment is worth it.

MattKing · Apr 10, 2018

Greg Heath said:
I have been using XTOL for the last 10 years. I used different bottles. Then I was done messing around. I bought this and it works fantastic. Do not use anything else. It stores perfect up to a year, because I pump in CO2 from my beer brewing stainless pressure tank so no Oxygen can get to it. ZERO issues. Got it at Freestyle for $36

Your photo didn't load.

Greg Heath · Apr 10, 2018

MattKing said:
Your photo didn't load.

lol....operator error. trying it again...

This has worked for me and It's Great. 2 gallon XTOL. Before I close the lid I vent CO2 into it to keep air off the liquid. It does have an internal floating lid, so that helps too.

Greg

MattKing · Apr 10, 2018

Isn't CO2 likely to be a source of problems?

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 10, 2018

MattKing said:
Isn't CO2 likely to be a source of problems?

Possibly. I don't think CO2 is an inert gas. I think nitrogen is more useful in preventing oxidation. I think C02 can make solutions more acidic. I might be wrong about this.
I've been using XTOL replenished and my only issue is that it loses strength at the recommended replenishment rate. But I use a wine bladder for the replenisher portion and use a polyethelyne jug which I top off to get rid of air.

mshchem · Apr 10, 2018

Here's how I store XTOL stock
https://freundcontainer.com/thermo-scientific-nalgene-hdpe-plastic-narrow-mouth-bottles/

I have 4 oz, 16oz, 32 oz. In reality the 4 oz. holds right at 140 mL just perfect for 1 roll in terms of chemical capacity. I no longer replenish when I use the marvelous Jobo. It's amazing how much time I can spend trying to avoid inversion agitation .

Best and never fail results I have had over the decades has been 1+1 XTOL 1 shot in a Paterson tank, or replenished XTOL stock in a Paterson tank or hangers in open hard rubber Kodak tanks, or HC-110 dilution B in a Paterson tank or hard rubber tanks.

I have ruined sheet film in Jobo tubes using XTOL, bromide drag streaks. I have had under developed roll film in Jobo from (my fault ) tried XTOL 1+1 and didn't have enough active concentrate. I failed to observe the perfectly clear Kodak instructions.

I am very happy with XTOL, but as Mr RattyMouse has suggested when in doubt use HC-110 one shot.

I love bottles, I have hundreds. I have banned glass from my darkroom. I gave up my huge collection of amber glass bottles about 20 years ago. Beautiful but unfortunately fragile .
Mike

mshchem · Apr 10, 2018

P.S. I use natural HDPE not brown. I want to see the color of solutions.

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