Demin water for final rinse?

jimgalli · Mar 4, 2009

Everyone's water is different. I live in the Desert SW. After many trials I finally ended up with sodium hexametaphosphate in my final rinse water with a little foto flo. Sodium hexametaphosphate is the chemical name for Calgon. It's the same agent you put in your dishwasher to keep the water spots off of your glass ware. Not only does my film dry spotless now, the tank no longer has a filmy scum over time to clean off. It's very cheap in bulk on ebay. I use perhaps enough to cover a dime in 800 ml of water.

wogster · Mar 4, 2009

Anscojohn said:
With all due respect, I do not buy it. I have heard this stated over and over, especially in the last five years or so. For one shot fixer approaches, I submit that the same amount of care, or effort, or energy, into good storage technique, marking the number of rolls fixed on the bottle, has worked for many, many photographers over many, many millions of rolls of film.
Consistency and predictability come from having known solutions in known quanties--not the vagaries of water supplies, stock chemicals changing over time, and other variables.
I think the internet and the joys people encounter moving from d'''''l to film cloud the water, so to speak. I have a lot still to learn in my craft; but how to complexify fixing my film is one I will drop to a very low priority. Everyone has a right to be wrong, I guess; most assuredly yours truly, but there are more important things to do than fuss over your fixer.

Fussing over fixer is why I use film fixer 1 shot, at a lower dilution, typically 1+6 it's one less thing to worry about....

Anscojohn · Mar 4, 2009

wogster said:
Fussing over fixer is why I use film fixer 1 shot, at a lower dilution, typically 1+6 it's one less thing to worry about....

*****
And I'm sure your extra dilute solution works just fine. I have some of my own negs fixed almost fifty years ago; and can print from some of my dad's from the 1940s that seem to be just fine. I'm sure yours will hold up as nicely...........

dancqu · Mar 5, 2009

wogster said:
Fussing over fixer is why I use film fixer 1 shot, at a lower dilution,
typically 1+6 it's one less thing to worry about....

I also infrequently develop film; a few rolls a year.
Working with fresh concentrate the dilution was 1:32,
500ml. The last few, with now aging concentrate, went
through at 1:24. I ended up dumping some of the
concentrate. Concentrate ages and working
strength ages even faster.

Rather than throwing aging working strength and/or
aging concentrate down the drain I switched to sodium
thiosulfate. It alone is my fixer formula and, IIRC,
Steve Anclell's Plain Fixer. For slow speed films
16 grams, a good 1/2 ounce, of the anhydrous.
Dilution is determined by solution volume.

Nothing could be easier to mix. Very dilute one-shot
fixers, being so dilute and at end so little loaded with
silver, wash clean with less water and results are
within 'archival' limits.

Fresh each roll or rolls. No need to rebottle or keep
records. Any fix can be used very dilute. Dan

pierods · Mar 5, 2009

dancqu said:
...Rather than throwing aging working strength and/or
aging concentrate down the drain I switched to sodium
thiosulfate. It alone is my fixer formula and, IIRC,
Steve Anclell's Plain Fixer. For slow speed films
16 grams, a good 1/2 ounce, of the anhydrous.
Dilution is determined by solution volume.
...

taking due note!

Here in Europe, 1 kilo of thiosulf is 10Euros.

1 kilo / 16 grams = 62 rolls, 16 euro cents/roll

ilford rapid fixer is 11 euros/liter, at 1+4 is 20 rolls, 55 euro cents/roll.

plus the thiosulf alone is alkaline and can be used with pyrocat hd.

Anon Ymous · Mar 5, 2009

Hmmmm, are you sure pierods? It's 1100 eurocents for 1lit of Ilford rapid fixer. According to Ilford's documentation, 1lit of working strength solution (1+4) will fix about 24 films. I assume that's a safe estimation and the real number could be even higher. So, 5lit of working strength solution will fix 120 rolls, thus costing 1100/120=9,2 eurocents per roll. Even if 1lit will fix 20 rolls, it's exactly 11 eurocents/roll.

pierods · Mar 5, 2009

since i don't reuse, my calculator says 1100 eurocents divided by 20 rolls = 55 eurocents.

don't you have the same calculator?

and yes, I could reuse, but since I almost never develop more than one film at a time, and one every three of four days at most, what do i do with the fixer I mixed?

I could keep it, but then I would have to test it every time, I mean, the hassle would increase exponentially...

The hypo recipe seems wonderful to me.

Plus this way I don't have to use a stop bath, and then the pyrocat thing.

wogster · Mar 5, 2009

dancqu said:
I also infrequently develop film; a few rolls a year.
Working with fresh concentrate the dilution was 1:32,
500ml. The last few, with now aging concentrate, went
through at 1:24. I ended up dumping some of the
concentrate. Concentrate ages and working
strength ages even faster.

Rather than throwing aging working strength and/or
aging concentrate down the drain I switched to sodium
thiosulfate. It alone is my fixer formula and, IIRC,
Steve Anclell's Plain Fixer. For slow speed films
16 grams, a good 1/2 ounce, of the anhydrous.
Dilution is determined by solution volume.

Nothing could be easier to mix. Very dilute one-shot
fixers, being so dilute and at end so little loaded with
silver, wash clean with less water and results are
within 'archival' limits.

Fresh each roll or rolls. No need to rebottle or keep
records. Any fix can be used very dilute. Dan

16g in how much water? I don't have that formula handy.... You can also get it from a chemical supply house, rather then a photo supply house, and that may make it cheaper.

dancqu · Mar 5, 2009

pierods said:
since i don't reuse, my calculator says 1100 eurocents divided by
20 rolls = 55 eurocents. don't you have the same calculator?

Click to expand...

Anon is correct but does not tell the whole story. He is speaking
of Ilford's estimate of a liter's chemical capacity. I and others
will agree that their estimate is high. Fewer rolls with
iodized and silver loaded high speed films.

There is no point in using the concentrate at a 1:4 dilution when
working one-shot. A certain amount of the concentrate is needed
to fully fix any one film. The amount it may be diluted is of no
consequence. As a general rule the less the solution volume
the less will be the dilution; ie, a 36 exp. 35mm vs a 120.
I've suggested 20ml of rapid concentrate in what ever
solution volume is needed. Iodized emulsions may
need more.

and yes, I could reuse, but since I almost never develop more
than one film at a time, and one every three of four days at
most, what do i do with the fixer I mixed? I could keep it,
but then I would have to test it every time, I mean, the
hassle would increase exponentially...

Click to expand...

Which ever fix you use, rapid or slow, one-shot chemistry
eliminates the need for add on chemicals, ie, preservative,
and ph buffers. Also the little chemistry present can be
expected to wash out more easily. Silver levels are
extremely low, well within 'archival'.

The hypo recipe seems wonderful to me.
Plus this way I don't have to use a stop bath, and then
the pyrocat thing.

Click to expand...

IMO, that solid non-perishable fixer 'concentrate' is the
good alternative especially for those of us with a low
volume of film or prints needing processing. Dan

dancqu · Mar 5, 2009

wogster said:
16g in how much water? I don't have that formula handy....

You won't find a 'published' formula for one-shot fixer any
where. That 16 grams of sodium thiosulfate anhydrous is
the amount of the chemical needed to fully fix one 120
roll or equivalent.

The solution volume, amount of water, is dictated by
the format being processed, eg, 35mm,
250ml - 120, 500ml.

The more dilute the fixer the more time it takes.
I allow a good 10 minutes with 120 and agitate
the first full minute then a few inversions at
one minute intervals. Dan

Anon Ymous · Mar 6, 2009

pierods said:
since i don't reuse, my calculator says 1100 eurocents divided by 20 rolls = 55 eurocents.

don't you have the same calculator?

Well, if you don't reuse 55 eurocents is correct, but then using 50ml concetrate for each film is wastefull. Using Dan's method, you'd need much less.

pierods said:
and yes, I could reuse, but since I almost never develop more than one film at a time, and one every three of four days at most, what do i do with the fixer I mixed?

Put it in a bottle.

pierods said:
I could keep it, but then I would have to test it every time, I mean, the hassle would increase exponentially...

I'd expect a 1l (1+4) solution to be working for at least 1 month in less than ideal storage conditions. 10 films would also be an easy goal for 1l. One more thing: The definition of "hassle" varies depending on the person.

pierods said:
The hypo recipe seems wonderful to me.

Plus this way I don't have to use a stop bath, and then the pyrocat thing.

If it works, it works. If you need an alkaline fixer to use with pcat, then Ilford's rapid fixer is not for you. Anyway, my previous post was meant to give a rough estimation about the cost of fixing per film when reusing fixer...

pierods · Mar 6, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
I'd expect a 1l (1+4) solution to be working for at least 1 month in less than ideal storage conditions....

Uhmmm....didn't know that, I thought it lasted a few hours.It changes things. I'll try.

hoffy · Mar 6, 2009

Now, according to the PDF:

Unreplenished ILFORD RAPID FIXER working
strength solutions should last for up to:-
6 months in full tightly capped bottles
2 months in a tank or dish/tray with a floating lid
1 month in a half full tightly capped bottle.
7 days in an open dish/tray.

hoffy · Mar 6, 2009

Getting back to my OP, I did a film last night. I washed using the same method, but with less Ilfotol. This time, there was no touchies. And this time, the drying marks were worse.grrrrr

I have followed the directions in the second post in this thread - (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and I will see if it cleans up OK.

Is Ilfotol OK? Does anyone else use it?

pierods · Mar 6, 2009

listen to me now:

pick a SMALL (otherwise dust won't settle - keep reading) room with a door, hang some kind of stick to the wall.

after you are done with dev and wash, pour this solution in the tank:

300 ml DISTILLED water (DISTILLED I say)
0.1 ml PHOTOFLO (PHOTOFLO I say), no more, no less.

BE PRECISE!

go to the small room, put down the tank, vaporize water with a garden vaporizer for a minute or so, so that dust settles.

pull out the reel, hang the film to the stick with film clips to dry.

DO NOT WIPE FILM IN ANY MANNER.

close the door. get the film 3 hours later (no less than that) (and not much longer either otherwise dust will raise from the floor and settle on film).

capisc?

wogster · Mar 6, 2009

dancqu said:
You won't find a 'published' formula for one-shot fixer any
where. That 16 grams of sodium thiosulfate anhydrous is
the amount of the chemical needed to fully fix one 120
roll or equivalent.

The solution volume, amount of water, is dictated by
the format being processed, eg, 35mm,
250ml - 120, 500ml.

The more dilute the fixer the more time it takes.
I allow a good 10 minutes with 120 and agitate
the first full minute then a few inversions at
one minute intervals. Dan

Okay that makes sense, 16g of powdered Sodium Thiosulfate in enough water to cover the reel, makes a lot of sense. I guess you could check the clear time with it the first time, and go from there on fixing time. Now it's too bad that developer formulas are not so easy..... Then again that's not so tricky, with some of the developers from high concentrates like Rodinal or the HC developers. Only problem for me, is I need to find a scoop or spoon that holds 16g of Sodium Thiosulfate, as I do not have a scale..... I think someone said something about teaspoons back a few messages....

dancqu · Mar 7, 2009

wogster said:
Okay that makes sense, 16g of powdered Sodium Thiosulfate
in enough water to cover the reel, makes a lot of sense. I guess
you could check the clear time with it the first time, and go from
there on fixing time.

Click to expand...

I do give film some, but not necessarily twice, more time than
needed to appear entirely clear. Clear is not necessarily colorless.
BTW, I suggest room temperature water. A leasurly Ilford sequence
works well for me. Very little water is needed.

Now it's too bad that developer formulas are not so easy.....
Only problem for me, is I need to find a scoop or spoon that
holds 16g of Sodium Thiosulfate, as I do not have a scale....

Click to expand...

That is 16 grams ANHYDROUS and may be a little more or
a little less depending upon the film. There are many films
I've not tested. If you've the PENTA, 25 grams. When the
film is finished so is the fixer.

So, fresh fix each roll from a non-perishable solid concentrate.
Not everyone's cup of tea. For those who are now and then
processing a roll of film, it's as sure a bet as can be had.
Dumping unused chemistry when we know better just
because it has or "may have gone bad and any way
is too cheap to chance" is irresponsible.

To measure by spoon, average. A scale of some sort will be
needed. I've an inexpensive kitchen scale with 0.1 ounce
resolution. To average count the number of spoons
needed to make a few ounces then divide that
few ounces by the number of spoons. The
result is the average weight per spoon.
If the Penta, a shy ounce. Dan

hoffy · Mar 9, 2009

I'm not sure how to take the response below (I'm afraid I am rather tired from a weekend away and my Sarcasm Filter is non responsive!), but the re-washing in Demin water and light dabbing with damp tissue has worked a treat. The negs look spotless

From below, I do see exactly what you mean. Where I live, the humidity is generally pretty low, so adding some to the drying room could actually work to improve the situation. I might just run the hot shower for a few minutes before hanging to dry (should achieve the same effect)

pierods said:
listen to me now:

pick a SMALL (otherwise dust won't settle - keep reading) room with a door, hang some kind of stick to the wall.

after you are done with dev and wash, pour this solution in the tank:

300 ml DISTILLED water (DISTILLED I say)
0.1 ml PHOTOFLO (PHOTOFLO I say), no more, no less.

BE PRECISE!

go to the small room, put down the tank, vaporize water with a garden vaporizer for a minute or so, so that dust settles.

pull out the reel, hang the film to the stick with film clips to dry.

DO NOT WIPE FILM IN ANY MANNER.

close the door. get the film 3 hours later (no less than that) (and not much longer either otherwise dust will raise from the floor and settle on film).

capisc?

pierods · Mar 9, 2009

I meant to be funny but maybe I am better at developing film than at being funny...

I still recommend you follow to the letter, but photography is all about experimenting so...

hoffy · Mar 9, 2009

Its all good!

pierods · Mar 9, 2009

dancqu said:
wogster said:

That is 16 grams ANHYDROUS and may be a little more or
a little less depending upon the film. There are many films
I've not tested. If you've the PENTA, 25 grams. When the
film is finished so is the fixer.

Dan

Click to expand...

I'm writing this down...precious recipe...thanks Dan

BobNewYork · Mar 9, 2009

hoffy said:
Its all good!

It's called "The Sopranos Photography Technique" - they make you a fixer you can't re-use

Sorry - just couldn't resit !!!

Bob Hall

pierods · Mar 9, 2009

maybe dan will have to kill us now that he's told us...

BobNewYork · Mar 9, 2009

I know nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

dancqu · Mar 9, 2009

Some Background

pierods said:
dancqu said:

I'm writing this down...precious recipe...thanks Dan

Click to expand...

Several years ago I began wading into photography after
a many years hiatus. I bought up a lot of camera gear and
darkroom gear and the usual off the self chemistry including
acid stops and rapid fixer. I had nothing more in mind than
the usual three maybe four tray setup for prints.

With the washer and dryer and one sink of a two sink counter
removed I had more room but not enough. So I adopted the
Single tray processing method. To make it very convenient,
I decided one-shot chemistry was the way to go.

One-shot developer was easy. Film is often developed that
way using the included instructions. The challenge was one-
shot fixer. Now I ask you, has anybody ever encountered
manufacturer included one-shot fixer instructions? For a
while I thought there must be some 'magic' dilution
at which fixer must be used.

I did though via rec.photo.darkroom and via the WWW
encounter a VERY few references to the use of more
than the usually dilute fixer. For example, Eddie
Ephraums and his 1/4 strength fix.

To make a too long a story short, I set about to determine
the least amount of chemistry needed in a least workable
solution volume, film and prints. That least chemistry in
least volume determines the dilution.

Films and paper are or were tested unexposed; worst case
for a fixer. The only down sides are the longer film and
fixer process times. But, at least for myself, no stop
of any sort, and guaranteed 'archival' results plus
the few other advantages mentioned to date
more than make up for the little additional
time used processing. Dan

Demin water for final rinse?

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