Demin water for final rinse?

hoffy · Mar 1, 2009

Howdy,

I am still finding my way with film development.

With the first (& thus far only) roll that I have developed, I noticed some drying marks. For the final rinse, I used filtered tap water and around 2ml of ILFOTOL. I then wiped the film between two fingers dipped in the final rinse solution (recommended method by the shop).

Would there be any benifit in using Demin water for the final rinse? Should I a) not wipe the film down or b) use more/less ILFOTOL?

Also, in relation to storing Fixer, is this effected by light? I have the mixed fixer stored in a PET Soft drink bottle, in a light reduced area (but not completely dark). When doing a clip test, I assume that I use a piece of undeveloped exposed film. Is that correct?

Cheers and thanks

Anscojohn · Mar 1, 2009

Demin water might be an help; but first try reducing the amount of wetting agent. Often, less is more. Can't answer question about light and used fixer. Mine is stored in brown bottles.

Dan Henderson · Mar 2, 2009

I use a method that I learned from Les McLean: fill a plastic container with distilled water. Add one capful of isopropyl alcohol and one drop of Photo Flo or similar wetting agent. Stir up a bit, then make several passes of your washed film through the solution. I don't wipe my film, just give it a gentle shake to cast off some of the water droplets, and hang to dry. The alcohol helps the film dry faster and (in conjunction with the distilled water) without water spots. Close up the container and save for the next film, adding one capful of alcohol and one drop of PF each time the solution is reused.

Your assumption on the clip test is correct.

By the way, what is "denim water?" I envision the rinse water from my jeans!

hoffy · Mar 2, 2009

Its actually Demin (not Denim...) water or Demineralised water

Dave Martiny · Mar 2, 2009

I used to squeegy my film between two fingers, but not any more. If you do, any particle that may be present on your film gets drug along, producing scratches. I use photoflo in either RO or distilled water, and just hang to dry -- no water marks, no junk on the negs, clean as can be.

Regards,

Dave

hoffy · Mar 2, 2009

OK, thanks. I will try less solution this time and if it still persists, Demineralised water next. I will also keep fingies off!

BTW, I am only doing 1 roll a month at the moment. With the fixer (I am using Ilford Rapid Fixer), I mixed up 1 litre of working solution (1+4, as per the instructions) and have stored it (as above, soda bottle, with all the air pushed out using glass beads). According to the litrature, this should keep for a few months, but even then I might only run 10 or so rolls of film through it.

Would I be better off using my fixer 1 shot? If I do, what dilution should I start with, as 1+4 seems a bit extreme and a waste? I will clip test, but I just want a starting point. The film is Hp 5+ 35mm, 24 exp.

Cheers

Dan Henderson · Mar 2, 2009

hoffy said:
Its actually Demin (not Denim...) water or Demineralised water

damn....I thought I had that syldexia under control!

Anscojohn · Mar 2, 2009

Would I be better off using my fixer 1 shot?
******
Not really. It's unnecessary and wasteful.

start with, as 1+4 seems a bit extreme and a waste? I will clip test, but I just want a starting point.
*****
If I understand correctly, put the film end in fresh fixer, with constant agitation for a minute or so, then every 30 second. Time how long it takes for the film to clear. That is your baseline. When your negs take twice that amount of time to clear, it's time to dump the fixer.
Check also on the recommended number of square inches of film Ilford recommends in a given amount of fixer.

hoffy · Mar 2, 2009

Thanks John. Even though I am still trialing my process and getting things right for me, I don't want to make basic mistakes that both effect quality and wastes materials. I suppose, now that I have that working fixer mixed, I might as well use it till it doesn't work anymore. If it only lasts a few rolls, well then I will re-asses the situation.

Cheers and thanks

Anscojohn · Mar 2, 2009

One thing, just be sure not to use the same fixer for both film and prints. For myself, I have never been particularly careful about my film fixer. When it seems to be getting "too slow" I dump it. My negs, last time I looked, seem to be still o.k. Some go back almost fifty years. But who knows what they'll look like in another fity years
FWIW, I don't use rapid fix--simply because I mix up F24 from scratch because it is so simple. Since it does not contain hardener, I have to be very careful not to scratch the negs, so I do not use a squeegee or the wet finger approach--although I did at one time.
Have fun; be frugal; keep everything as simple as possible.

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

Start with less wetting agent and work up. One teaspoon makes a gallon. As long as the water spreads evenly over the film you're good. To get those off try wiping with a dampened tissue on the base side only.

I have never needed the finger swipe along the film. I think there is a potential for scratching. Use what works.

clayne · Mar 2, 2009

I usually use 1 tbsp to 5L which is about 1:350 ratio. Kodak recommends 1:200 for Photoflo and that's even too much.

Wade D · Mar 3, 2009

I use well water which is all I have here. It is then run through a 3 micron filter which gets rid of most impurities. One cap full of photo flo per gallon is the mix I use. If the photo flo foams ( forms bubbles ) when mixed with the water it is too strong. I've used this method for many years with no drying marks.

BobNewYork · Mar 3, 2009

I've successfully used C-41 stabilizer mixed half strength with dehumidifier water for a lot of years now. Seemed to work well.

Bob H

dancqu · Mar 3, 2009

hoffy said:
Would I be better off using my fixer 1 shot? If I do, what dilution
should I start with, as 1+4 seems a bit extreme and a waste?
I will clip test, but I just want a starting point. The film is
Hp 5+ 35mm, 24 exp. Cheers

I used 15 ml of fresh concentrate in 500ml of solution; one
120 roll. I upped it to 20ml with signs of aging. A good starting
point would be 20ml. The high dilution will require perhaps up
to 10 minutes with intermittent agitation. Down the drain
when done.

With the low volume you have I suggest a few bottles be
used for the concentrate. I've only a few rolls yearly so
switched to the old slow fixer sodium thiosulfate.
Fresh each roll from a dry 'concentrate'. Dan

pierods · Mar 3, 2009

My dilution with photoflo is 0.1 ml for 300 ml of distilled (demineralized) water.

When using more or less, I had drying marks, either from water (less wetting agent) or from the wetting agent itself (more wetting agent).

0.1 ml can be measured by buying a pipette in a pharmacy, it'll cost you maybe 3 dollars. Take the rubber squeezer off and toss it.

don't touch film in any way.

Slixtiesix · Mar 3, 2009

I use distilled water plus some drops of wetting agent for the final rinse of my film.
works fine, I never had any problem.
By the way, I wouldn´t store chemicals in soft drink bottles. Ok, I think nobody would drink from a bottle that stands in a darkroom, except of little children maybe, but brown glass is far superiour, as it is easier to clean and does not react with chemicals. Plastic does also allow air to pass (believe it or not!), which isn´t the case with glass.
Greetz, Benjamin

dancqu · Mar 3, 2009

dancqu said:
I used 15 ml of fresh concentrate in 500ml of solution;
one 120 roll. Dan

You'll likely find 15ml of fresh concentrate enough; 24
exposures. Also, 35mm requires less solution volume.
Time in the fixer will likely be some where around
5 minutes. Dan

clayne · Mar 4, 2009

If we're talking Photoflo or similar, 15ml : 500ml is way too much. That's a 1:33 ratio. Kodak themselves recommend 1:200 from concentrate and even this is too high.

dancqu · Mar 4, 2009

clayne said:
If we're talking Photoflo or similar, 15ml : 500ml is way
too much. That's a 1:33 ratio. Kodak themselves
recommend 1:200 from concentrate and even
this is too high.

Not PhotoFlo but one-shot fixer and the amount of
concentrate needed to fix one 24 exposure roll. Dan

wogster · Mar 4, 2009

dancqu said:
Not PhotoFlo but one-shot fixer and the amount of
concentrate needed to fix one 24 exposure roll. Dan

Your final, final rinse is in fixer? You don't wash your film after fixing? How does that work for ya? :confused:

hoffy · Mar 4, 2009

I think he was answering my other question about 1 shot fixing

Anscojohn · Mar 4, 2009

hoffy said:
I think he was answering my other question about 1 shot fixing

******
Granted, I am not up on all the latest lore circulating here and on the internet. But one shot fixing seems to me to be one of the more ridiculous bits of darkroom technique that has come along with the internet for those of us who remember when Verichrome was an ortho film; Plus-X was ASA (not ISO) 50 and TRI-x was still on the drawing board in Rochester.

With fresh fixer (and I mean F24, not rapid fix), the film is almost completely cleared by the time I get the fixer poured into the tank, agitate once or twice, and get the @##$ stainless steel lid off. When my film takes about three or four minutes to clear completely, I know it is time to mix up another batch of F-24.

When I'm working like a one armed paper hanger with jock itch, trying to soup half a dozen rolls of film against an on rushing deadline, I don't need to concern myself with whether or not I have enough fix mixed up at the right dilution for a one shot kill. Admittedly, I am math-challenged. But why is it that everyone seems to want to complexify everything?

I believe I might see a few more really knock out images posted in the gallery if people would settle on one film, one film developer, one paper, one paper developer, use them for months and months until they KNOW intuitively what they are doing--so they can begin what E. Weston called "seeing photographically."
Am I the only dinosaur out there in APUG land? Or as one of my early mentors told me, "You think you're being creative; but all your doin' is just makin' a mess."

wogster · Mar 4, 2009

Anscojohn said:
******
Granted, I am not up on all the latest lore circulating here and on the internet. But one shot fixing seems to me to be one of the more ridiculous bits of darkroom technique that has come along with the internet for those of us who remember when Verichrome was an ortho film; Plus-X was ASA (not ISO) 50 and TRI-x was still on the drawing board in Rochester.

With fresh fixer (and I mean F24, not rapid fix), the film is almost completely cleared by the time I get the fixer poured into the tank, agitate once or twice, and get the @##$ stainless steel lid off. When my film takes about three or four minutes to clear completely, I know it is time to mix up another batch of F-24.

When I'm working like a one armed paper hanger with jock itch, trying to soup half a dozen rolls of film against an on rushing deadline, I don't need to concern myself with whether or not I have enough fix mixed up at the right dilution for a one shot kill. Admittedly, I am math-challenged. But why is it that everyone seems to want to complexify everything?

I believe I might see a few more really knock out images posted in the gallery if people would settle on one film, one film developer, one paper, one paper developer, use them for months and months until they KNOW intuitively what they are doing--so they can begin what E. Weston called "seeing photographically."
Am I the only dinosaur out there in APUG land? Or as one of my early mentors told me, "You think you're being creative; but all your doin' is just makin' a mess."

There are a couple of reasons for one shot fix, I think most of the folks doing one shot fixing (I am one of them) do it because they have a low volume operation, when it can be a month or more between rolls, a bottle of fixer will expire before you get it used up anyway, so trying to remember how many rolls have been done or bothering to do a clearing test for every roll. It all comes down to consistency, and getting predictable results, if I use my chemistries one shot, I am pretty much guaranteed that every roll will have the same results. Now if I was shooting 10 rolls a week, then I would do it differently. If I was shooting 100 rolls a week, it would be radically different....

Anscojohn · Mar 4, 2009

wogster said:
There are a couple of reasons for one shot fix, I think most of the folks doing one shot fixing (I am one of them) do it because they have a low volume operation, when it can be a month or more between rolls, a bottle of fixer will expire before you get it used up anyway, so trying to remember how many rolls have been done or bothering to do a clearing test for every roll. It all comes down to consistency, and getting predictable results, if I use my chemistries one shot, I am pretty much guaranteed that every roll will have the same results. Now if I was shooting 10 rolls a week, then I would do it differently. If I was shooting 100 rolls a week, it would be radically different....

With all due respect, I do not buy it. I have heard this stated over and over, especially in the last five years or so. For one shot fixer approaches, I submit that the same amount of care, or effort, or energy, into good storage technique, marking the number of rolls fixed on the bottle, has worked for many, many photographers over many, many millions of rolls of film.
Consistency and predictability come from having known solutions in known quanties--not the vagaries of water supplies, stock chemicals changing over time, and other variables.
I think the internet and the joys people encounter moving from d'''''l to film cloud the water, so to speak. I have a lot still to learn in my craft; but how to complexify fixing my film is one I will drop to a very low priority. Everyone has a right to be wrong, I guess; most assuredly yours truly, but there are more important things to do than fuss over your fixer.

Demin water for final rinse?

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