Delta 100 pinholes / emulsion issues in 4x5...

PKM-25 · Mar 9, 2013

Ugh, ran another ten sheets today and I am having a heck of a time with Delta 100 in 4x5 in terms of pinholes / emulsion coming off in specks. I am running either Xtol 1+1 or HC-110 B in rotary / Jobo 3010, no special distilled water, temps within 1/2 a degree. I am using Ilford Stop bath and Kodak fix. It's definitely emulsion though, I can see the marks in the emulsion with a 15X loupe...very Efke-like behavior although rarely in the middle of the sheet, opting for corners or edges, really odd.....

It's the only sheet film I have this problem with.....and I have always had it, thought it was dust for awhile...

What the freak is going on?

Kevin Kehler · Mar 9, 2013

I would contact Simon directly - they will probably ask you to send the film to them and they can put it under the electron microscope to give you the best answer.

Mark Layne · Mar 9, 2013

I remember this problem being discussed before and was pinned down to too strong acid stop bath.
Mark

PKM-25 · Mar 9, 2013

Mark Layne said:
I remember this problem being discussed before and was pinned down to too strong acid stop bath.
Mark

Thanks, I'll try a dilute mixture next time around....

jeffreyg · Mar 9, 2013

I don't use an acid stop bath -- just water. Actually, I've never used an acid stop bath for film both Kodak and Ilford films including Delta 100 4x5. It has worked with no problems for over forty years. I do use acid stop for paper .

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

markrewald · Mar 9, 2013

The issue of using a stop bath and pin holes is that a function of film size? I have been using Kodak's stop bath for years and have had no pin holes in my film but the largest film I use is 120. I ask this question because I just inherited a 4x5 camera and I would rather not get frustrated with pin holes from the get-go.

Bruce Osgood · Mar 9, 2013

I've not had this problem. I use Delta 100 (4X5) with Xtol 1+1 in a CPE+ and do not pre rinse or use a stop bath. I use several changes of water in place of a stop bath and TF4 to fix, FotoFlo and hang to dry.

Simon R Galley · Mar 11, 2013

Dear PKM 25,

Firstly I am always concerned and very sorry when anyone has a problem with one of our products, even if you use an acetic acid based stop bath you should never get pinholes on any ILFORD film product, emulsion being removed from any base requiries some kind of traumatic chemical or temperature based event.

90% of QC enquiries relating to marks of any type on any of our films are related to dust or contaminants preventing development, but you say 'emulsion' is being removed and you have no temperature variation.

As you are probably aware we do not recommend pre-soaking any of our films, in our opinion this is just not required, you do not state if you pre-soaked, BUT regardless, as long as its not an excessive pre-soak that should not affect in any way the performance of the film.

I have checked to see if we have any outstanding QC complaints on DELTA 100 Sheet film and we have none, none outstanding on any DELTA Film product, so as one of the above suggested you should send a sheet of the affected film to us for examination, just send it by post to Technical Service at Mobberley please include your e.mail address, a description of what has happened, your process and the batch number off the box and an unexposed sheet as well from the same box if you have it, you said you can see 'the emulsion' off with a 15 x Lupe, I do not doubt for a second that is what you think you see, but it probably is not, unless its actually reticulation it may well be interference with one of the coated layers, the only way you can actually tell is by using an Electrom Microscope which is what we will use.

You will get back an explanation of what we think it is, that will start with one of three statements :

1 ) Cause justified : A problem has occured with the manufacture of the product.

2 ) Cause not certain : We are unable to determine how or why a problem exists with the sample.

3 ) Cause not justified : A problem was encountered post manufacture.

Kind Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

MartinP · Mar 11, 2013

PKM-25 said:
I'll try a dilute mixture next time around....

I know you are a very experienced photographer and darkroom worker PKM, but just in case anyone else looks at this later on what he means is "even more dilute"! The standard dilution with Ilfostop is 1+19 and I use it myself at that concentration without a problem, as do zillions of other people.

It will be interesting to discover what the problem is caused by, as the whole process you described seems pretty optimal. Very good support from Ilford, as usual

StoneNYC · Mar 11, 2013

Simon R Galley said:
Dear PKM 25,

Firstly I am always concerned and very sorry when anyone has a problem with one of our products, even if you use an acetic acid based stop bath you should never get pinholes on any ILFORD film product, emulsion being removed from any base requiries some kind of traumatic chemical or temperature based event.

90% of QC enquiries relating to marks of any type on any of our films are related to dust or contaminants preventing development, but you say 'emulsion' is being removed and you have no temperature variation.

As you are probably aware we do not recommend pre-soaking any of our films, in our opinion this is just not required, you do not state if you pre-soaked, BUT regardless, as long as its not an excessive pre-soak that should not affect in any way the performance of the film.

I have checked to see if we have any outstanding QC complaints on DELTA 100 Sheet film and we have none, none outstanding on any DELTA Film product, so as one of the above suggested you should send a sheet of the affected film to us for examination, just send it by post to Technical Service at Mobberley please include your e.mail address, a description of what has happened, your process and the batch number off the box and an unexposed sheet as well from the same box if you have it, you said you can see 'the emulsion' off with a 15 x Lupe, I do not doubt for a second that is what you think you see, but it probably is not, unless its actually reticulation it may well be interference with one of the coated layers, the only way you can actually tell is by using an Electrom Microscope which is what we will use.

You will get back an explanation of what we think it is, that will start with one of three statements :

1 ) Cause justified : A problem has occured with the manufacture of the product.

2 ) Cause not certain : We are unable to determine how or why a problem exists with the sample.

3 ) Cause not justified : A problem was encountered post manufacture.

Kind Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon, just an FYI, Dan (PMK-25) tends to buy a LOT of film at once and stocks it, it may be he bought the entire run in the area that was bad IF it was bad, so maybe that's why you haven't had any issues yet, Dan owns them all hehe

But seriously, you say no pre-soak? Really? When PE (Ron...Kodak Ron) says all films should pre-soak, do you suggest that Ilford films NOT pre-soak? Will I potentially run into issues if I pre-soak ilford films?

Also, I can't imagine the STOP could be an issue since its ilfostop...

Could it be an issue with not using purified water somehow?

Dan, do you run this in a different than normal (20°C) temperature?

Sorry to bud in and ask that pre-soak question but thought it was valid to your knowledge as well.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Simon R Galley · Mar 11, 2013

Dear Stone,

Whilst I am sure ( PMK-25 ) buys a lot of film I'm pretty sure he does not buy 193,750 sheets of 5 x 4 at once......although the Batch number can break that number down a bit ( to the individual slitting of the parent roll that the actual sheet film is from. )

Also its just not possible to have a 'bad batch' each sheet film batch is tested in excess of 30 different times from coating to finishing. If a batch has a problem ( a very, very rare occurance ) it is destroyed. Stocks of that Batch ( and every other sensitised product ) are held at Mobberley until the expiration date of that batch ( and often beyond ) so we can process and try and replicate a customer 'occurance'.

Regarding pre-soak, firstly PE is without any doubt whatsoever technically light years ahead of myself and therefore invariably correct, I must though 'reflect' the opinions and procedures developed by our own technical service department, whose job is to advise on the best practice for our products.

They say 'the modern manufacture of emulsions means that to obtain optimum results with ILFORD film pre- soaking is not required' .

What Simon says is simple....I do not do it, I've never done it ( on any film ) its absolutely more of a North American thing than a European thing, although I am not saying no European pre-soaks....and if you do pre-soak any ILFORD film in any format it should have no detrimental effect on that film whatsoever, we don't say don't do it, we say you don't need to do it.

I cannot speculate further on the issue this customer is having before we have seen the affected negatives, it could be any number of things....

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

DannL · Mar 11, 2013

This will most likely "not" be the cause of pinholes in the OPs case, but thought I'd mention it for reference. I fought pinholes in the emulsion for quite a while with several different cameras, when using older film holders. Very similar in some respects to the OPs current problem. Pinholes mostly near the edges, etc. After thorough investigation it turned out to be microscopic pieces of grit in the grooves of the film holders. When closing, then opening the the dark-side, the specks of grit would randomly adhere to the film surface. Of course this grit would block light from hitting the emulsion, and leave a microscopic pinhole in the emulsion following development. As I recall, under the correct magnification, angle and lighting conditions, you could see a sunken spot in the dried emulsion where the fixer had done it's work. Ultimately I replaced the cameras and their film holders.

Diapositivo · Mar 11, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Some people also like a pre-soak as a way of bringing the tank/film to development temperature, if the ambient temperature is significantly different than the planned processing temperature.

And some other people - yours truly included - pre-soaks just to check that the Jobo tank lid is properly closed. It's waaaay better to spot the problem with water than with developer

StoneNYC · Mar 11, 2013

Thanks Simon! Ok Dan we shall eagerly await you're results!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pgomena · Mar 12, 2013

I always pre-soak my film because I tray develop several sheets at a time and don't want to risk having sheets stick together as I'm adding them to the developer. It's not a long soak, maybe a minute or 90 seconds. I've never had a problem of any kind with any brand of film that was the film or manufacturer's fault.

StoneNYC · Mar 17, 2014

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but this caught my eye as I've now switched to Delta100 as my sheet film of choice, and was wondering whatever were the results? Thanks Dan.

ic-racer · Mar 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but this caught my eye as I've now switched to Delta100 as my sheet film of choice, and was wondering whatever were the results? Thanks Dan.

Post #14...

PKM-25 · Mar 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but this caught my eye as I've now switched to Delta100 as my sheet film of choice, and was wondering whatever were the results? Thanks Dan.

I did a batch after this thread, used a water stop bath, worked fine. I use Ilfostop at 1:40 now for roll film and tmax, water stop for D-100, Efke and HIE.

mgb74 · Mar 17, 2014

Is there any benefit to an acid stop bath for film unless dealing with short (under 5 min) development times?

PKM-25 · Mar 17, 2014

mgb74 said:
Is there any benefit to an acid stop bath for film unless dealing with short (under 5 min) development times?

Great question, I look forward to hearing the opinions of those more experienced than I...

StoneNYC · Mar 17, 2014

ic-racer said:
Post #14...

What does post 14 have to do with Dan's (PMK-25's)) results? Which he never mentioned till now...?

PKM-25 said:
I did a batch after this thread, used a water stop bath, worked fine. I use Ilfostop at 1:40 now for roll film and tmax, water stop for D-100, Efke and HIE.

Ahh! Thanks!

So far I haven't had any issues like this, but if I do I'll certainly lessen my stop bath dilution or just use a water stop if i ever get a JOBO with a lift...

Thanks for the update!

MattKing · Mar 17, 2014

mgb74 said:
Is there any benefit to an acid stop bath for film unless dealing with short (under 5 min) development times?

Greater consistency, and it preserves and enhances the operation of your fixer.

The fixers are designed with acid stop assumed.

pentaxuser · Mar 17, 2014

A highly diluted Ilfostop may have cured the problem but I'd be interested in Ilford's findings. Unless there was a specific problem with this batch of film I don't suppose that Ilford will be happy to accept that its Ilfostop has to be diluted to 1+40 instead of 1+19 to be sure of avoiding pinholes

pentaxuser

PKM-25 · Mar 17, 2014

pentaxuser said:
A highly diluted Ilfostop may have cured the problem but I'd be interested in Ilford's findings. Unless there was a specific problem with this batch of film I don't suppose that Ilford will be happy to accept that its Ilfostop has to be diluted to 1+40 instead of 1+19 to be sure of avoiding pinholes

I think my case is far too specific to assume it is a sign of a broader problem. I need to play with it some more in order to be conclusive...

Xmas · Mar 18, 2014

MattKing said:
Greater consistency, and it preserves and enhances the operation of your fixer.

The fixers are designed with acid stop assumed.

oops since I use tempered water rinse and plain hypo neither of your cases applies exactly

the acid stop is very necessary with prints when the developer and fix may leave a stain.

the rinse otherwise only protects the fixer from contamination as letting the developer continue is an option eg the borax post bath people do intentionally.

if you are worried about the fixer a double rinse is just as effective as acid to protect the fix but mostly I use a double fix bath as I don't like under fixing risk a single water rinse removes a high % of developer from the film it needs time and agitation...

if you are worried about the film emulsion water is a lower risk if you use non prehardened film you won't have an acid stop in your dark room... sometimes I use non Ilford film...

never had negative stain from ID 11, Microphen or Rodinal yet, but always use acid stop with prints.

Delta 100 pinholes / emulsion issues in 4x5...

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Delta 100 pinholes / emulsion issues in 4x5...

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