Definitive & accepted wash method?

[flavio81]

From what I’ve read, there was some doubt cast on the Ilford wash method,

Sorry, what's the "ilford wash method"??

 

[MattKing]

Sorry, what's the "ilford wash method"??

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

 

[flavio81]

Hypo Clearing Agent !
Hypo Clearing Agent reduces the wash time to 5 minutes for films, 10 minutes for single-weight papers, and 20 minutes for double-weight papers.

I always wanted to know which substances can be used for hypo clearing.

I use Tetenal Lavaquick, but it only says it reduces wash times in 50%.

 

[flavio81]

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

Spiral tank processing method
For minimal water usage the following method is well
tested;
• After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same
temperature, +/- 5ºC (9ºF), as the processing solutions.
Invert the tank 5 times.
• Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank 10 times.
• Once more, drain the water. Invert the tank twenty times and
drain the water away.

Wow, this was quicker than I thought!

It seems i've always washed too much... I often had running water for about 10 minutes, occasionally agitating very vigorously.

Thanks!

 

[MattKing]

It seems i've always washed too much... I often had running water for about 10 minutes, occasionally agitating very vigorously.

If you use wash-aid first, a ten minute "trickle" flow - enough to change the water in 5 minutes - works really well and gives you a few minutes to finish putting things away.

 

[flavio81]

If you use wash-aid first, a ten minute "trickle" flow - enough to change the water in 5 minutes - works really well and gives you a few minutes to finish putting things away.

I see!

I wonder if some household item would work as a hypo clear, like for example common salt.

 

[grain elevator]

There's no doubt the Ilford method works in principle, there is just doubt whether 3 water changes is always enough. Adding one or two changes adds much safety and the water usage us still not bad. You could use water from the last changes to water plants or all of it to flush the toilet.

 

[grain elevator]

I see!

I wonder if some household item would work as a hypo clear, like for example common salt.

It does work to some degree, haven't you read the story often told here of how the navy washed prints in sea water and they were done quicker?Not as common as table salt, but washing soda works better, or so I've read. But I expect it would unnessecarily swell and soften the emulsion. Sodium sulfite is easy to obtain and that's the real deal (pH adjusted with bisulfite, but also works without).

 

[grain elevator]

If you use wash-aid first, a ten minute "trickle" flow - enough to change the water in 5 minutes - works really well and gives you a few minutes to finish putting things away.

Does such slow trickle actually lead to enough water flow everywhere in the tank? I find that hard to believe, I think it will stagnate in some areas.

 

[Vaughn]

I assume you don't work in a shared darkroom

I had to give up eating granola and yogurt for breakfast -- the combo was unacceptable when working in a group-darkroom.
Developing and hanging sheets of film to dry in the bathroom means I need to plan my non-shower days.

Does such slow trickle actually lead to enough water flow everywhere in the tank? I find that hard to believe, I think it will stagnate in some areas.

While I use standing baths of water to wash sheet film, I agitate the trays several times over the 5 minutes to get fresh water in contact with the emulsion. Otherwise as fix leaves the emulsion, the concentration of fix next to the emulsion increases, slowing down the diffusion of the fix from the emulsion.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There's no doubt the Ilford method works in principle, there is just doubt whether 3 water changes is always enough. Adding one or two changes adds much safety and the water usage us still not bad. You could use water from the last changes to water plants or all of it to flush the toilet.

I use eight 30 second changes with the constant motion of the Jobo machine using 500ml maximum with each wash.

 

[MattKing]

Does such slow trickle actually lead to enough water flow everywhere in the tank? I find that hard to believe, I think it will stagnate in some areas.

With the Paterson tanks and the appropriate hose, as an example, the water enters through the centre core into the very bottom of the tank and then rises up the tank and drains out of the top. Not much opportunity to stagnate.

 

[flavio81]

It does work to some degree, haven't you read the story often told here of how the navy washed prints in sea water and they were done quicker?Not as common as table salt, but washing soda works better, or so I've read. But I expect it would unnessecarily swell and soften the emulsion. Sodium sulfite is easy to obtain and that's the real deal (pH adjusted with bisulfite, but also works without).

Sodium sulfite removes hypo? I thought sodium sulphite only removed silver halides from the emulsion. Thus its use on fine grain developers.

 

[MattKing]

Sodium sulfite removes hypo? I thought sodium sulphite only removed silver halides from the emulsion. Thus its use on fine grain developers.

Added Sodium Sulfite combines with the sodium or ammonium thiosulfate and creates a complex that is more water soluble than the thiosulfate itself. That complex is more efficiently and more quickly removed during the wash.

 

[flavio81]

Added Sodium Sulfite combines with the sodium or ammonium thiosulfate and creates a complex that is more water soluble than the thiosulfate itself. That complex is more efficiently and more quickly removed during the wash.

Thanks, this is great info. Now i need to get that sulfite when my "tetenal lavaquick" is gone.

 

[MattKing]

Interesting - the MSDS for that Tetenal product lists a couple of hazardous components that I don't think I've ever seen on an MSDS for a wash aid, and as a result there is no reference to sodium sulfite.
The reason that sodium bisulfite is to ensure appropriate ph.
Here is an old MSDS for the Kodak alternative, Hypo Clearing Agent
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/27517217/msds-kodak-hypo-clearing-agent

 

[flavio81]

Interesting - the MSDS for that Tetenal product lists a couple of hazardous components that I don't think I've ever seen on an MSDS for a wash aid, and as a result there is no reference to sodium sulfite.

You made me check the MSDS too, it says 25% Tetrasodium EDTA... hmmm

Very interesting.

 

[JerseyDoug]

Hi all! Ahead of me developing my first roll of film (starting with B&W, then trying C41), I’ve been going over the developing process when lo and behold, I’ve gone down the rabbit hole with wash methods.

Aside from the environmentally conscious reasons (we are in drought mode in California), my development location will not be near a sink/running water, so I’ll need a reliable method that doesn’t require running water, but that should yield archival results.

From what I’ve read, there was some doubt cast on the Ilford wash method, which according to PE, was formulated under very specific conditions (that may not have universally reproducible results), and from a necessity for water conservation.

While PE gave seemingly valid reasons for why the Ilford wash may only possibly satisfy the low end of acceptable, I don’t recall that he provided an alternative and acceptable method that doesn’t use running water.

So my questions:

1. Is there a Photrio community accepted method that is superior to the Ilford wash method that doesn’t require running water?

2. Whichever method you all recommend, can I use this same method for washing C41 between the developer & fixer, and between the fixer & stabilizer?


Thanks in advance!

The Ilford Film Washing Method works well. I use it and periodically test developed and washed sample negatives for residual hypo when I change any of my films or chemicals. All consistently test as archival, i.e., no detectable residual hypo.

In earlier discussions here PE seemed to think that Ilford recommended the 5+10+20 method for both film and prints. See his comment #52 in Link #1 below. Ilford never recommended the method for prints. It is no surprise at all that it did not work well for prints. See Ilford's recommendation for washing both film and paper at link #2 below.

PE also seems to have misunderstood Mason's formulas, particularly as they apply to an iterative process.

Link #1 - https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-wash-method.45680/page-3

Link #2 - https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Thanks, this is great info. Now i need to get that sulfite when my "tetenal lavaquick" is gone.

Just to elaborate on other people's comments:

Fixer's active ingredient is either sodium thiosulfate (conventional slower powdered fixers) or ammonium thiosulfate (rapid fixers, always sold in liquid form). There are other ingredients that help, but those are the ones that do the fixing.

Sodium sulfite is the main ingredient in wash aids (Hypo Clearing Agent, Ilford Wash Aid, etc., etc.). If your water isn't too hard you can use a Tablespoon of sodium sulfite plus a pinch of sodium bisulfite/metabisulfite to make your own. Use one batch.

Tetrasodium EDTA is a water-softening agent (Calgon) and used to sequester dissolved minerals in hard tap water. That's why it or similar compounds, are in most commercial wash-aid formulas. You don't need it if you have relatively soft tap water.

Sodium sulfite may not show up on a MSDS simply because it is not deemed hazardous. That doesn't mean it's not in the product.

Doremus

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Hypo Clearing Agent !
Hypo Clearing Agent reduces the wash time to 5 minutes for films, 10 minutes for single-weight papers, and 20 minutes for double-weight papers.

Hypo Clearing Agent and sulfite-based wash-aids in general are not recommended for negatives developed in staining developers like Pyrocat or PMK.

I wash in running water for 30 minutes or change-soak-change 5-6 times in 30 minutes.

Doremus

 

[flavio81]

Tetrasodium EDTA is a water-softening agent (Calgon) and used to sequester dissolved minerals in hard tap water. That's why it or similar compounds, are in most commercial wash-aid
formulas. You don't need it if you have relatively soft tap water.

Thank you very much. So Tetrasodium EDTA = "Calgon". I wasn't aware of that. I remember Calgon on some recipes too.

Sodium sulfite may not show up on a MSDS simply because it is not deemed hazardous. That doesn't mean it's not in the product.

Oh, i thought the MSDS often indicated all or most ingredients...

 

[pentaxuser]

There's no doubt the Ilford method works in principle, there is just doubt whether 3 water changes is always enough.

Well yes it does work although, as I understand it , only in conditions of a U.K. drought. It was invented by Ilford in 1976 during our famous drought by government behest. In fact an official drought only existed in certain areas of the U.K. and in those areas where there was no drought such as Scotland, they had to be content with more wasteful methods of washing. To this day, the Scots favour the Kodak trickle method and this will be enshrined in law as soon as independence is achieved

An interesting historical note now: The Scottish National Party, whose aim is Scottish Independence, can trace its origins to that year of '76 when a hardcore of its supporters became convinced that Scotland was being subjected to an English plot to restrict the use of water via such underhand methods as the Ilford wash method so the U.K. government could tell its English voters that water restrictions applied to all U.K. areas.


pentaxuser