Defective Darkroom Supplies Galore

DH_Studio · Dec 17, 2020

Hey guys. First off, I'm new to the darkroom (returning after years but was never anything like an expert) and you guys and gals on this forum have been a huge help and have answered tons of questions for me, so thank you!

I've had a run of bad luck with darkroom supplies. First, an Arista/Freestyle Photo stainless steel tank with a leak where the lid seals around the tank so chemicals leaked out all over the place and light leaks ruined the film (and I was super firm and thorough in making sure the lid was on all the way and firmly pressed down). Then, separately, two bent Arista 120 reels that dented the film I ran so badly that I could barely get it flat enough to scan. Then, an envelope of D76 that arrived with powder the color of hot cocoa. Turns out it was from a defective batch. So I ordered a replacement, from another seller in a different part of the country, and that ended up being from the same bad batch. So for weeks I've just been dead in the water waiting for sellers to replace the garbage they shipped to me.

Is this the state of analog processing in 2020? Should I just expect that 4 out of 5 things I order are going to be defective and bundle extra time into each processing session to replace them and for QC trial-and-error?

I've definitely learned to stay away from Arista products and spend a little more for quality, but is this just the way it goes most of the time?

Wayne · Dec 17, 2020

I always mix my own B&W so I've never had that problem. You might think about that later on. I think you just ran into some bad luck, but who are you buying from? If you stick with the well known vendors that most of us use you should be fine.

DH_Studio · Dec 17, 2020

Wayne said:
I always mix my own B&W so I've never had that problem. You might think about that later on. I think you just ran into some bad luck, but who are you buying from? If you stick with the well known vendors that most of us use you should be fine.

I saw some folks talking about mixing their own in another forum, I'm definitely going to look into that. I bought the Arista stuff from Freestyle Photo, a major darkroom/photo supplier in Los Angeles, and the chems came from Mel Pierce Camera (also in LA) and Reformed Photo Lab (in Florida). I found a thread on here from September about that bad batch of D76 so that, I guess, is a known issue - not sure why people are still selling it, or why it wasn't all recalled - but at least Kodak knows and acknowledges it. Frustrating as #&%@ though to have film sitting for weeks and waiting to be processed and to keep getting delayed because manufacturers aren't QC'ing products and finding defects before they ship!

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2020

FreeStyle accepts returns or issues credit for defective items returned in 30 days. Call them.

DH_Studio · Dec 17, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
FreeStyle accepts returns or issues credit for defective items returned in 30 days. Call them.

I already replaced the Arista crap with Hewes. Just wondering more if this is a constant thing with darkroom equipment and chemicals being an industry in decline and if I need to adjust my expectations.

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2020

DH_Studio said:
I already replaced the Arista crap with Hewes. Just wondering more if this is a constant thing with darkroom equipment and chemicals being an industry in decline and if I need to adjust my expectations.

What you experienced with defective equipment is the exception not the rule. If the industry has a wide spread problem, they would have shut down decades ago.

MattKing · Dec 17, 2020

I think you have had a run of bad luck.
The market is now much more of a niche market than it once was. The number of sources for product, and the quantity of product produced, is now much smaller than it once was. So if a glitch or two happens, you are more likely to encounter it than when everything involved so many more choices, and so many more outlets.
There have also been some important disruptions to supply chains which, although they have been dealt with somewhat satisfactorily, still have presented at least temporary problems. The receivership and rebirth of Tetenal - one of the biggest chemical manufacturers - has had a number of consequences.
But I think if you look at things like user reviews, and communicate with others, you will realize that most people get satisfactory results from the products they purchase. And if you deal through sources that stand behind products, problems get corrected.
I expect that most users of the products that have caused problems for you have had good results from them.

MattKing · Dec 17, 2020

For what its worth, the Arista products I have are excellent, and excellent value for money. But they aren't immune to damage.

DH_Studio · Dec 17, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
What you experienced with defective equipment is the exception not the rule. If the industry has a wide spread problem, they would have shut down decades ago.

I always loved Freestyle and Arista stuff and have used a ton. Bummer to have gotten multiple defective products back to back, and to have discovered the issues separately so each time it took them a week to ship a replacement, as happened now with the D76 - twice. So I'm just sitting here twiddling my thumbs waiting!

DH_Studio · Dec 17, 2020

MattKing said:
I think you have had a run of bad luck.
The market is now much more of a niche market than it once was. The number of sources for product, and the quantity of product produced, is now much smaller than it once was. So if a glitch or two happens, you are more likely to encounter it than when everything involved so many more choices, and so many more outlets.
There have also been some important disruptions to supply chains which, although they have been dealt with somewhat satisfactorily, still have presented at least temporary problems. The receivership and rebirth of Tetenal - one of the biggest chemical manufacturers - has had a number of consequences.
But I think if you look at things like user reviews, and communicate with others, you will realize that most people get satisfactory results from the products they purchase. And if you deal through sources that stand behind products, problems get corrected.
I expect that most users of the products that have caused problems for you have had good results from them.

I've seen a lot of people talking about Tetenal on here - don't know what it is, but I'm going to do some research. Darkroom supplies are definitely a niche market, now, so it makes sense that there are fewer options and longer delays. But encouraging to hear from multiple people that this is probably just a string of bad luck vs just "The way it goes" - hopefully I get this stuff straightened out and can get to it. Got my second bad batch of D76 in the mail today (though not as dark brown as the first) so I've just been dead in the water for a couple weeks as I receive and then return one bad product after another. Keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be able to actually run that Delta 3200 you gave me some feedback on someday soon!

DH_Studio · Dec 17, 2020

MattKing said:
For what its worth, the Arista products I have are excellent, and excellent value for money. But they aren't immune to damage.

D76 is not supposed to be this yellow/beige, right (and this was taken with flash, so it's even cooler than IRL)? The first batch I got was dark brown, this one is still not white but not quite as bad. But in the past the powder has always been pretty pure white, and from the videos I've watched on YouTube the powder looks almost as brilliant white as the envelope.

MattKing · Dec 17, 2020

There is a batch that is dis-coloured. And volumes are such that there may not be a lot of different batches out there at any one time.
From Kodak Alaris' Kodak Professional Facebook page:
Quoted here:
Kodak Professional
4 hrs ·
"Let’s talk D-76.

If you have Catalog #1058270 (Batch 2020/01/23 8438 & Batch 2019/10/09 8432), you may have noticed a discoloring of your product. Please know we’re aware of this and apologize for the inconvenience or confusion this may have caused for a product you’re well used to.

Rest assured we want to get this taken care of for you. Please email us at ProPaperChem@KodakAlaris.com and our team will be back in touch to provide you with next steps on this specific product.

*If you have the product in your care and have not yet opened it, we encourage you to reach out to us for next steps as well.

For any questions in the meantime, please don’t hesitate to be in touch with us via email or private message!"

wyofilm · Dec 17, 2020

Hang in there. The state of traditional photography has its problems, but usually not to the level you experienced. With that said, there are crappy, low end products out there. Several years ago when I got back into traditional photography I bought some low end all-in-one-darkroom items and paid that price and the price to replace them. For film developing I use Paterson tanks and reels (I have had zero problems). Early on I decided to bypass the whole powder developer, because 5 liters is a pain the ass and I didn't know how much film I would be developing. I use liquid developer (DD-X from Ilford) most of the time. Mix as one shot. Simple. If you stick with it then you will likely branch out in other ways. (Don't tell some people on this forum but I even have a bag of Xtol waiting to be mixed up.)

Simple is best early on. In fact, this product might suit your needs in the beginning: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1448926-REG/ilford_1178858_simplicity_film_kit.html/reviews

There is no better way to enjoy a new or returning to a hobby than with success early on. The simplicity choice isn't the cheap option, but it will be the successful option as you get your film legs back underneath you.

cmacd123 · Dec 17, 2020

Arista generally make reasonably good products ( it is Freestyles House brand, but they also sell it through other dealers. Stainless reels do work well, BUT they require a LOT of practice to load, or else the film will come off the track and have dented edges or worse. The Hawes are more expensive and also generally acknowledged to be better built.

wyofilm · Dec 17, 2020

Ok, not looking for smack down fight just perspective.

I've never used a stainless steel reel developing tank (even in olden times), why do people like them over plastic ones?

MattKing · Dec 17, 2020

wyofilm said:
Ok, not looking for smack down fight just perspective.

I've never used a stainless steel reel developing tank (even in olden times), why do people like them over plastic ones?

For me, and only for 35mm.
Faster to load.
As easy or maybe even easier to load - even when not yet fully dry.
Use less chemicals.
Remind me of my youth .
That being said, I'm not using mine much now, because I develop both 120 and 35mm, and so far I haven't figured a way of loading steel 120 reels reliably with my 1.5 dexterous hands.
Even the really nice Hewes steel 120 reels that I can't bring myself to give up on.

winger · Dec 17, 2020

wyofilm said:
I've never used a stainless steel reel developing tank (even in olden times), why do people like them over plastic ones?

Personally, I've just never been able to load 120 film on a plastic reel. And I can't load 35mm on a steel one. It comes down to personal preference and what works for each person. Dexterity-wise, a Hewes reel is so easy for me to load with 120. I don't really know why, it just is. Stainless reels also dry fast and clean easily.

wyofilm · Dec 17, 2020

winger said:
Stainless reels also dry fast and clean easily.

I don't have any problems loading the plastic ones (when dry!). Regarding the ease of the Hewes, its best I never learn how much better they are! The point about drying and cleaning makes good sense.

cmacd123 · Dec 17, 2020

The steel tanks are reasonably rugged, and they do not have to completly dry to load another roll of film. the tanks are small and so they require less solution. The metal heats and cools fast so they work well in water bath temperature control. folks who like them find they are easy to load (with Practice) and reliable.

I know I used one for years, a Nikor I bought used. took me about 6 rolls of film to get the knack of loading it. my complaint was that for some reason, the film stuck close to the wires and I would get small bands of unfixed film in the edge printing area. I bought several other reels of different brands, and many of them were extremely fussy about getting the film centered and straight in order to load. I also found that the larger tanks took a long time to fill.

I then switched to Patterson, and then to the Jobo 1500. Just today I dug out a 3 reel Paterson as that was the size I needed, and was reminded that while the paterson is relativly easy to load, it is more likly to get hung up than the Jobo 1500 series.

Paterson, tanks can be 1, 2, 3, 5 or 8 reels of 35mm.
Jobo 1500 can be 1 (1510) , 2 (1520) 4 (1540 = 1510 + 1530) , 5 (1520 +1530), 7 (1510 + 2Times 1530) 8 (1520 plus two times 1530) I only tried more than 8 once and it was too awkward to use.

the Steel tanks come in 250ml, (1X35mm) , 500Ml (1X120 or 2X 35mm) , 1Liter (4 X35mm or 2X 120 or 2 x35 Plus 1 120 and I think i have seen a 2 l (twice the 1 L)

cmacd123 · Dec 17, 2020

on the loading angle, my orhinal Nikor 35mm tank, and one of my 120 steel reels came with a loading device, basicaly a bent piece of metal that holds the film at the correct radous of bend to load a stainless reel. using that tool for a while will let to feel the right degree to bend the film to load the reel smothly.

http://ebay.ca/itm/143558783125 should an example of what they look like

mshchem · Dec 17, 2020

If you want to make your life simple, until the Kodak Alaris black and white chemistry mess gets straight, buy Ilford fixer, stop bath and one of their film developer formulas.
Even easier, buy a bottle of Adox Rodinal and a small 25-50 mL plastic graduated cylinder. Rodinal has been around when George Eastman was still working at a bank. It is the most foolproof, never ages, dependable easy to use developer ever made. And this is coming from a guy who has license plates that say XTOL (I'm not kidding ) XTOL is wonderful I have a strategic supply. All of Kodak and Ilford chemistry was (is still with Ilford) made in Germany by Tetenal until Tetenal went to a massive re-organization due to financial issues. There's a new Tetenal, who is trying to get back on track, the Tetenal E6 and C41 kits are perfect for small volume users.
The best SS tanks with plastic lids were made by Kindermann, in West Germany. Every other plastic lidded tank is either a Taiwan or Chinese copy, and as such somewhat hit or miss in quality. Kindermann tanks were also sold as Beseler Professional tanks in the 20th century.
Nikor the original, of which everyone else copied started in NYC sometime in the mid to late 30's to cope with the miniature film boom (i.e. 35mm, Leica etc.) Later Nikor moved to West Springfield Massachusetts. This is where most of the stuff came from. It was the absolute best you could buy, a status symbol until Donald Paterson perfected his wonderful auto loading reels. Paterson pretty much took the non professional market away from Nikor, Nikor was bought and eventually went away.

Nikor is classic but they all leak, weep, taping the lid on with waterproof tape helps. But almost any not defective plastic lidded tank won't leak as much as a 50 year old Nikor tank. It won't look cool, or feel as cool as a nice Nikor tank but that's what you get from Cheap imports.

Buy a bottle of Rodinal, some Ilford Rapid fixer, Edwal LFN wetting agent. Maybe buy a Paterson universal tank, holds 1 120 or 2 35mm reels. Quit messing with Kodak Powders for now. Everyone else makes powders Ilford, Foma, Eco-Pro etc. But try to make your life easy Rodinal is 10 mL to make 260mL developer, use once and toss.

MattKing · Dec 17, 2020

ID-11 is a functional equivalent to D-76.

wyofilm · Dec 17, 2020

mshchem said:
Buy a bottle of Rodinal

Great advice.

mshchem · Dec 17, 2020

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/886586-REG/Paterson_Universal_Tank_with_Two.html
34 bucks free shipping. 2 reels No leaks if you burp. Every other plastic tank made today other than Jobo and AP (AP modified the Paterson reel) is a copy of an older design of Paterson design. Paterson makes the best plastic tanks and trays made, for manual processing

Jobo tanks are 2 to three times more expensive, the reels require more finesse, Jobo doesn't leak and are modular, brilliant design.

AP reels are much easier to start the film on the reel, especially 120 film. Lots of folks use AP reels with Paterson tanks.

wyofilm · Dec 17, 2020

My only criticism of the Paterson tanks is the lid and burp. It's too slow while I feel the the clock running. I'm sure it hasn't materially altered any development with the delay in agitation, but it sure feels that way!

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