De Vere 504 contrast control with Seagull VC-FB II

[FL at CC]

Hey there, guys! I'm finally going to be using my 504 Dichromat with some fresh Seagull VC-FB II Warm Tone. I've noticed the contrast control settings listed for the Kodak contrast values from Oriental only give one either yellow or magenta value between #0 and #5 settings. I was wondering whether anyone could shed any light on settings between 0-5 for both yellow and magenta for each contrast level. I've only ever used Durst colour heads, thus am left slightly puzzled.

Frank

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Your color head (Dichromat) is continuously variable. Values between the settings given for grades 0-5 will yield intermediate contrast. More yellow/less magenta = less contrast; less yellow/more magenta = more contrast. You'll have to adjust exposure when you change contrast settings unless you use one of the regimes that keeps the density of the filtration the same.

See the Ilford document for more info (it applies to other materials and heads as well): http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf

Best,

Doremus

 

[FL at CC]

Your color head (Dichromat) is continuously variable. Values between the settings given for grades 0-5 will yield intermediate contrast. More yellow/less magenta = less contrast; less yellow/more magenta = more contrast. You'll have to adjust exposure when you change contrast settings unless you use one of the regimes that keeps the density of the filtration the same.

See the Ilford document for more info (it applies to other materials and heads as well): http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf

Best,

Doremus

Hey, Doremus! Thanks for that I've only ever done my work on a Durst, so going to a Kodak valued enlarger is way new to me! Would you say the Oriental paper is rather close in variable contrast settings to Ilford Multigrade? I heard there was around a 1 grade difference, with the Oriental needing a compensation of more contrast to roughly match the same level as the Ilford at a given setting?

 

[Doc W]

If you want to calibrate your colour head so that the exposure time will be constant as you change contrast, you can use several methods. I used Paul Butzi's method which was published in Photo Techniques in 1998. It is quite tedious, in my opinion - you need to do it for each paper you use, or at least you need to test with each paper you use - but it does allow you to change contrast without having to adjust exposure.

I first did this several years ago with Ilford MGIV and thought that I had made a mistake because I couldn't get higher than about grade 3.5. However, as I later discovered, I can't get any higher with that paper on any enlarger I used. I was so naive at the time that this came as quite a shock! Now I am used to the fact that all papers are different and you really need to explore each one.

Coincidentally, I also used Oriental Seagull for the first time yesterday. I used MG filters because I have not tested the paper yet, but it is remarkably different from Ilford WT. In a side-by-side comparison, it is very yellow-green (developed in Dektol 1:2 for 2 minutes). I am not sure yet if I like that, but I am guessing that this colour cast will disappear somewhat with selenium toning.

Good luck with calibrating the dichroic head, if you decide to go that route. If I can be of help, let me know. I am no expert but I do learn from my own mistakes.

 

[FL at CC]

If you want to calibrate your colour head so that the exposure time will be constant as you change contrast, you can use several methods. I used Paul Butzi's method which was published in Photo Techniques in 1998. It is quite tedious, in my opinion - you need to do it for each paper you use, or at least you need to test with each paper you use - but it does allow you to change contrast without having to adjust exposure.

I first did this several years ago with Ilford MGIV and thought that I had made a mistake because I couldn't get higher than about grade 3.5. However, as I later discovered, I can't get any higher with that paper on any enlarger I used. I was so naive at the time that this came as quite a shock! Now I am used to the fact that all papers are different and you really need to explore each one.

Coincidentally, I also used Oriental Seagull for the first time yesterday. I used MG filters because I have not tested the paper yet, but it is remarkably different from Ilford WT. In a side-by-side comparison, it is very yellow-green (developed in Dektol 1:2 for 2 minutes). I am not sure yet if I like that, but I am guessing that this colour cast will disappear somewhat with selenium toning.

Good luck with calibrating the dichroic head, if you decide to go that route. If I can be of help, let me know. I am no expert but I do learn from my own mistakes.

Thanks a bunch, Doc! We're definitely on the same page indeed, I also am tucking into a nice box of Ilford MG WT. I'll have to do some serious experimentation! I'm quite used to MG and Bromophen developers, I've always wanted to give Dektol a try

 

[Doc W]

FL, if you do calibrate your dichroic head, I would be very interested to see the contrast range you get. I don't really need the high contrast end of things but I am curious about the experience of others with dichroic heads and Ilford paper.

 

[FL at CC]

Oh I've been going over Paul Butzi's technique now and it's without a doubt very complex and tedious. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it!

 

[Doc W]

Oh I've been going over Paul Butzi's technique now and it's without a doubt very complex and tedious. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it!

If you want to give it a whirl, contact me. It is tedious but you will wind up with set of contrast settings that are speed-matched.

 

[FL at CC]

If you want to give it a whirl, contact me. It is tedious but you will wind up with set of contrast settings that are speed-matched.

Thanks a bunch, Doc

 

[MartinP]

A simple alternative (time is money) is to use the Multigrade under-lens filter sets, or just think of more/less contrasty than a middling starting-point contrast, without worrying about some notional grey that happens to be the 'same' speed. The person viewing the print doesn't care what number filter was used after all.

 

[ic-racer]

It is a little crazy to use contrast filters if you already have a dichroic head. Seagull does not make contrast filters anyway. If the paper is designed for Ilford contrast filers, then use the printing table of Magenta/Yellow values for printing on Ilford paper with the 504 head.

[

 

[FL at CC]

A simple alternative (time is money) is to use the Multigrade under-lens filter sets, or just think of more/less contrasty than a middling starting-point contrast, without worrying about some notional grey that happens to be the 'same' speed. The person viewing the print doesn't care what number filter was used after all.

Hey, Martin! I was actually toying with simplifying the process to a degree with the use of just straight Ilford or Kodak drop in filters, though I think I may as well take advantage of the Dichroic head and keep it streamlined as much as possible

It is a little crazy to use contrast filters if you already have a dichroic head. Seagull does not make contrast filters anyway. If the paper is designed for Ilford contrast filers, then use the printing table of Magenta/Yellow values for printing on Ilford paper with the 504 head.


[

Yup, I see exactly what you mean. I'm most likely going to begin to just do a series of small, basic tests with various negatives in my archive to get a feel for the Seagull. Then, after noting the characteristics of how the paper behaves with the Kodak filtering values on the 504 against the given Ilford contrast values from Oriental as a guide I'll try to come up with a simple compensation rule. I will down the track attempt Paul Butzi's technique when I've got a good footing with the paper stocks

 

[MartinP]

Just to note that my professional printing 'career' (sounds good, but was only two years until the company downsized, concentrating on E6 and RA4 and dropping B+W) was based on a De Vere 504 with the usual Dichromat diffusion head. Then and now, I can see no reason to try to set up 'grades' for variable-contrast printing.

The speed-equivalent point is true for only one shade of grey -- the majority of the photograph will, obviously, not be that shade. A difference of a tenth of a stop of exposure is visible on the print, so changing contrast will almost always require exposure adjustment if you print the whole image in some notional 'grade' of contrast.

For any sort of complex neg, I suggest exposing the print as one lower contrast grade (try equal yellow and magenta, about 30 units) and then adding density with more magenta where it is needed. If the neg needs lower contrast, then start lower. Thinking of adding (or removing, implying you need a different base exposure) contrast here and there, instead of sticking to some imaginary contrast-grade, is much more flexible and intuitive.

 

[ic-racer]

Sometimes it is easier to set the middle values with exposure then adjust the contrast to get the white and dark areas to one's liking.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Love to hear your feelings about the seagull paper after you figured it out
Best peter

 

[FL at CC]

Sometimes it is easier to set the middle values with exposure then adjust the contrast to get the white and dark areas to one's liking.

Yup, coincidentally that's pretty much how I've printed since ever beginning. I don't generally do anything exceedingly dynamic on my prints so I usually just follow that methods

Love to hear your feelings about the seagull paper after you figured it out
Best peter

Will keep you guys posted!