Daylight Filter Settings With Color Enlarger

[cnc108]

Hello. New here to the forums. I am going to attempt copying my 35mm slides onto 6x6 & 4x5 Color film using my beseler dual dichro color enlager. This is the only way I can print my photos since reverse process is not an option.
I figured out how to successfully project / expose the slide onto film however, does anyone know color correction I will need to use with the filtration nobs (Y M C settings)? With the Beseler, I think the head uses Kodak filters. I plan to use daylight balanced film like Portra.

Secondly, I have some other films that are tungsten balanced I can use so filtration settings for that would be very helpful. Was thinking that since my color head lamp is 3300K (correct me if im wrong pls) and tungsten film is 3200K, the light source should be close enough to match the film...yes/no?

Now to wrap it up, I have some 8x10 & 4x5 e6 transparency film expired in the 90s. it would be cool to finally pull them from the freezer and enlarge some 6x6 & 35mm transparencies. Project been kicking around to build a backlit display that would illuminate the transparencies. Would the color settings be the same as the color negative film as well?

Thank you all in advance. Seems like a great community here with some very knowledgeable & helpful people.

 

[AgX]

Welcome to Apug!

Light colour-temperature also depends on voltage which precisely should match the one required for the respective lamp.
Best way would be to employ a colour-temperature meter. Alternatively you could use an electronic flash for lighting.

Next issue would be the film you expose on. The actual slide-copying films (to give best results) have vanished long time ago.

 

[M Carter]

I copied tons of 35mm to 4x5 E6 in the pre-digital days. I started by adding full-CTB lighting gels (color temperature blue) to the filter holder, and found I also needed an additional 1/4 CTB to get truer daylight (CTB is designed to converted 3200k to 5500k - many enlargers are like 2700k though, so require more blue). Testing will get you there.

I eventually used gaffer tape and taped a small flash head to illuminate the enlarger bulb, so I got the same quality of light as if I were using the bulb, but truer daylight - I think I ended up using 1/4 CTO lighting gel with the strobe, but I liked a warmer-than-neutral tone.

The way I dialed this in back in the day was with 4x5 polaroid and a polaroid back. this very quickly allowed me to determine exposure and get very close to color temp. Those products are gone now though, so more extensive testing may be in order. Though I'd assume that dialing in color temp could be done with a DSLR set to daylight; aim it so you're photographing the baseboard with white paper under the enlarger, set the shutter to B and expose. You'll get a slanted/distorted image but you should get a good idea of the color. In theory that seems sound anyway.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I think a simpler approach would be to use the correct color-conversion filter for the film mounted on your enlarger. If your enlarger has a 3400K halogen light source, the correct filter is a blue 80B filter. If you're using a regular tungsten bulb, you'd need an 80A. You could just mount the filter on your lens and use your enlarger on the "white-light" setting. It doesn't matter where the filter is in the light path as long as the light gets filtered somewhere before it hits the film.

If you're copying onto color negative film, then there will also be some possibility to adjust color balance when printing/photoshopping.

Alternately, you could use a flash unit as your light source and not worry about filtration at all. I rigged up a slide copier years ago with pvc pipe and an old slide viewer that I could mount on my 55mm micro-Nikkor lens so I could copy in-camera. Something like that (you might be able to still buy a slide-copying attachment for 35mm cameras) and a flash unit, after a couple of tests for correct exposure and flash placement, and you'd be good to go.

Best,

Doremus

 

[ic-racer]

Process would be trial and error; not much different from color prints. You would project a slide showing a gray card.

Start with some blue filtration (for example if you have 3400K enlarger, 80B filter correction would be 85C and 25M on your color head; if you have 3200K enlarger lamp, 80A filter would be 90C + 30M, if you have 3800K enlarger lamp, 80C filter correction would be 55C + 17M etc. ) and expose the slide film.

The 4x5 film would be processed in E6 and inspected on a light table of appropriate color to see if you got the filtration correct.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's a bit tricky. You can save some time if you have a good color temperature meter on hand and adjust your colorhead to 5000K. But you still need to run bracketing tests for exact color balance and exposure time. The biggest problem you face is that appropriate duping films no longer exist. Ordinary chrome films have issues. The best duping sheet film I ever used was daylight Astia 100F. It was even better than CDUII or Kodak EDupe. Then you have to somehow bring the original slide into correct contrast range. This was conventionally done by pre-flashing the film; but I greatly preferred unsharp masking techniques. You'd also want to make a precise vacuum sheet film holder and find a seriously good duping lens. Take it a step at a time; otherwise, it might get frustrating. You might get just OK results if Kodak comes out with 4x5 sheets of E100G again; but it's probably the best you can expect unless you find some frozen Astia or CDU. Avoid Velvia like the plague.

 

[Bill Burk]

You know it is probably like shooting daylight film under tungsten lighting. You probably need an 80 B filter and nothing else. Looks like ic-racer has given you the filtration equivalent

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, yes, Bill. If one does not have a color temp meter they could simply start with "white" colorhead light minus any settings, add a decent 80B under the lens, examine the results, and then tweak the colorhead controls as needed.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I understood that the OP wanted to dupe onto color negative film. If this is indeed the case, an enlarger head with a halogen bulb (usually 3400K) and an 80B will be close enough to get the image onto the film once exposure tests have been done. Any "tweaking" of the color balance can be done in post-processing or printing.

If the OP is trying to enlarge slides onto color transparency film, then getting the color balance exactly right up front is critical. Still, I'd start with the 80B and tweak from there as Drew mentions above. The 80 series of color-correction filters is designed for matching daylight film to incandescent light sources. Here's Kodak's information:

80A - blue - color correction for daylight film (5500) under 3200K (studio) lamps
80B - blue - color correction for daylight film (5500) under 3400K (photo) lamps [Note: this includes most halogen enlarger bulbs.]
80C - blue - color correction for daylight film (5500) under 3800K (clear flash) lamps

Starting with the correct 80x filter for your light source will save a lot of time and fiddling... After all, they were designed for the job.

Pre-flashing the film or masking will likely be necessary when duplicating transparency to transparency. I'd start with pre-flash and see if that did the job.

Best,

Doremus

 

[DREW WILEY]

If that's the case, Doremus, you're talking about a color interneg, not a dupe. So, technically, one does not speak of duping onto negative film. But don't underestimate how tricky this can get. An 80B might work to see if you're even in the ballpark; but you can't simply rely on the neg film's alleged latitude after that if you expect quality color reproduction. Further corrective filtration at the light source itself will probably be needed. Portra 160 is a good interneg film for most slides except Velvia. Still, the slide contrast range has to somehow be reduced. The steps have to be learned one at a time, until all the variables get worked out. Of course, commercial labs once did this almost fully automated - and their internegs as well as dupes were routinely miserable too!

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Drew,

You're correct, of course. Still, I'm not sure whether the OP wants a dupe or an interneg. Back in the day, I did a lot of slide duplicating in-camera using pre-flashed K25, a daylight strobe and just a bit of cyan filtration. It worked well enough for my purposes then, which was projection. I wouldn't have wanted to make a print from the dupes, however.

You're much more of an expert on color work than I am, and you work to exacting standards, so the OP should definitely take your advice. Using an 80B and then adding filtration to refine the color temperature of the light source still seems a logical way to go about things to me.

Best,

Doremus

 

[ic-racer]

No reason to add a color correction filter to a color head unless it is broken.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Actually, high-quality correction filters can do a few things which are hard to do with just colorhead settings, and I happen to have a couple of custom additive colorheads more accurate than ordinary subtractive heads. Let's imagine you want to make a precise neutral contrast mask for use with color neg film onto some kind of pan film. One of your bigger problems is the orange mask inherent to the color negative itself. The exact shade of orange varies somewhat. But all you have to do is take a blank shot on the same kind of color film, process it, and voila - you've got the exact nulling filter you need. Likewise, you can correct for the slightly depressed green sensitivity of pan films by just adding a light yellow green Hoya X0 or Wratten 11 filter over the lens.