Darkroom Hygene Tips?

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Aggie

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Gerald Koch said:
What a particular thing to say. As I mentioned before it's all in the dose. In small amounts fluorine is an important trace element in the human body, important for strong bones and teeth. Take too much and its poisonous. Tooth enamel is made of a mineral called fluoroapatite. When there is too little fluoride in the human diet then tooth enamel consists of hydroxyapatite which is softer and more susceptable to decay.

No Flouride i any does is a poison. The subsequent studies that have been done show that the calcium derived from fluride is the brittle form that actually causes those funny white spots on teeth. That is a sign of flouride poisoning. Again the one study that was conducted was in the early 40's in Texas by one Dentist. He found that naturally occuring flouride was the only difference between 7 of 43 towns that he studied. In those 7 towns there was a slight decrease in tooth decay. From that study and only that study our great government found a way to dump the flouride that was collect in NJ at the aluminum plants Where down wind there was a 80 % increase of cancers and the first mass concentration of alzimer cases. They put scrubbers on the smoke stacks, the cancer incidence when to normal and the alzimers cases other than the rash that could not be cured, disappeared. That slurry from the stacks is what was put into our water supply. Flouride is and will always be one of the contributing factors to thyroid disease. I have hasimotos. That is why I was going back to school and got that damn degree of mine. I wanted to know. All of this comes out from different lectures at the University of Arizona or the University of Utah, in their various bio and bio chem classes. It was not long ago 2003 that the AMA came out with new guidelines for the levels of thyroid problems. It turned out that all these people who have been thold they were borderline now have a serious problem that was being overlooked. Now draw a corallary between the flouride that is being pushed at us and the major increase in thyroid disease. That and the mass increase in alzimers that until flouride was introduced to the water supply was non existant. Yep the dose is what is important. Tell that to the people who have a sensitivity to phyenolpekontnurics....it causes irreversible brain damage. It is so dangerous that we do PKU tests on our children when they are born to see if they are sensitive to it. What is that fancy sounding little substance? Try nutrasweet/equal/aspartame. Yet how many products are there with it in it? It is just a matter of dose? the PKU test only give you a reading if it is highly sensitive. All those people with slight or medium sensitivity do not rate. They have different problems, the least of which is bad headaches. Just a matter of dose?

Know thy poisons and what really is the bottom line.

Pyro which is being touted as so bad, OXIDIZES once it is mixed into a solution and exposed to air, and goes inert. Inert like it is harmless. Will still stain your hands if you put them into the solution.
 

jeroldharter

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After reading most of your post I think that the most helpful precaution you could take is to use Xanax. Sounds like your kids will be fine, especially with a locked door.

On the apron front, this is a good place to look:

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jeroldharter

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I was kidding about the Xanax of course. I have a 7 year old girl and I worry about her too.
 

dancqu

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Aggie said:
Ever wonder why many of the countries in
the world have banned flouride?

Not surprising since the wane of influence once
enjoyed by the USSR, United Soviet Socialist Republic.

I was informed of that Communist plot to undermine the
health of the Western World in the 1950s. At a meeting I
attended it was explained how if we adopted fluoridated
water we would be Fellow Travelers of the World Wide
Communist Conspiracy. Joeseph Macarthy, may
he rest in peace. Dan
 
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Kino

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jeroldharter said:
After reading most of your post I think that the most helpful precaution you could take is to use Xanax. Sounds like your kids will be fine, especially with a locked door.

On the apron front, this is a good place to look:

Dead Link Removed

Looks like a very rugged apron, thanks!
 

Gerald Koch

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Aggie said:
No Flouride i any does is a poison. The subsequent studies that have been done show that the calcium derived from fluride is the brittle form that actually causes those funny white spots on teeth. That is a sign of flouride poisoning
Tooth mottling is an indicator of too much fluoride. However, in the literature that I have read the problem is only cosmetic. Anyway, it's all in the dosage.
 

jswallow

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paper thin

Id you ever wait in the examination room for your doctor. Hanging on the is a case of protective things to wear in the hospital. They are made of paper and are disposable.
Check with a medical supply house.
As for those extra shoes...they have little paper botties that slip over your shoes and they to are disposable.
jack
 

Kirk Keyes

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Aggie said:
Dr. Pepper the soft drink has antifreeze as one of the presevatives, and we think nothing of drinking it, and that is far worse than our chemicals.

I hate when Dr Pepper gets slandered like this.

From http://www.drpepper.com/text/dpnutrition.aspx

Ingredients:

CARBONATED WATER, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, CARAMEL COLOR, PHOSPHORIC ACID, ARTIFICIAL AND NATURAL FLAVORS, SODIUM BENZOATE (PRESERVATIVE), CAFFEINE.

Note: In some markets, Dr Pepper is made with sugar instead of High Fructose Corn Syrup.


Now unless the "antifreeze" you refer to is included in "artificial and natural flavors", there is none in Dr Pepper. I hope you can plainly see the Sodium Benzoate is the only listed ingredient as a preservate.

And yes, if you mean ethylene glycol when you say "antifreeze", it is useful as a food additive. It's sweet and thickens liquids.

But as Gerold has pointed out, it is the dose that makes the poison, and ethylene glycol is perfectly fine food additive when used in the proper amount. I'm sure they taught that in your biochem classes...

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com
 

removed account4

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i love this place!

for a while there i thought someone was going to tell me that tomatoes are toxic! yes, they were avoided for years on end, because of the leaves, like other leaves in the nightshade family ( including tobacco ) -- they are deadly.
 

avandesande

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Actually propylene glycol which is used as antifreeze, is allowed for food sweetening but only in animal feed.
 

Wayne

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Kirk Keyes said:
I hate when Dr Pepper gets slandered like this.

From http://www.drpepper.com/text/dpnutrition.aspx

Ingredients:

CARBONATED WATER, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, CARAMEL COLOR, PHOSPHORIC ACID, ARTIFICIAL AND NATURAL FLAVORS, SODIUM BENZOATE (PRESERVATIVE), CAFFEINE.]


This list has obviously been altered by radical, ultra-paranoid scare-mongering greenies like me, in order to make darkroom chemicals seem more dangerous. :rolleyes:


Wayne
 

Gerald Koch

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Propylene glycol is not very toxic, The MSDS says that you must ingest about 3-1/2 ounces before there are any noticeable symptoms. It is used in many products intended for human consumption particularly pharmaceuticals. Once again it is the amount that is important.

Ethylene glycol is far more toxic since it is converted to oxalic acid in the body. Oxalic acid when ingested causes calcium oxalate to form in the kidneys and damage them.
 

Kirk Keyes

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I had confused ethylene glycol with diethylene glycol which has been used as a wine additive to increase sweetness.

Here's a nice write up on ethylene and propylene glycols and their uses:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html
"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as "generally recognized as safe," which means that it is acceptable for use in flavorings, drugs, and cosmetics, and as a direct food additive."

Speaking of oxalic acid, spinach and many other vegetables have high enough levels of oxalic acid to take notice. I ran across a souce the other day that recommended limiting the amount of spinach to 100 g per day for adults.
 

avandesande

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It is acidosis that kills you. Your body is unable to break the oxalic acid down and your blood ph drops. This is the same mechanism that causes methanol poisoning, but in that case it is formic acid.

Gerald Koch said:
Ethylene glycol is far more toxic since it is converted to oxalic acid in the body. Oxalic acid when ingested causes calcium oxalate to form in the kidneys and damage them.
 

dancqu

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Kirk Keyes said:
Speaking of oxalic acid, spinach and many other vegetables
have high enough levels of oxalic acid to take notice.

I've read that rhubarb leafs should be considered toxic.
Oxalic acid and the oxalates are very strong reducing agents;
anti-oxidants. Perhaps more so than ascorbic acid. Mr. Gainer
likely knows. Some use oxalic acid or an oxalate in their
Darkroom work. It's calcium salt is the least soluble of
all calcium salts. Good time for distilled water. Dan
 

Photo Engineer

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dancqu said:
I've read that rhubarb leafs should be considered toxic.
Oxalic acid and the oxalates are very strong reducing agents;
anti-oxidants. Perhaps more so than ascorbic acid. Mr. Gainer
likely knows. Some use oxalic acid or an oxalate in their
Darkroom work. It's calcium salt is the least soluble of
all calcium salts. Good time for distilled water. Dan


Oxalic acid is only known (AFAIK) as a reudcing agent in making ceramics and pigments, therefore it may only be a reducing agent at temperatures at which it decomposes, and not at typical darkroom temperatures.

If it were a strong reducing agent, then Ferric Oxalate would spontaneously decompose to some ferrous salt. It requires intermediating conditions and will not act as a reducing agent in the classical sense like hydroquinone or metol.

During WWII, when the US government advised the planting of Victory Gardens, they suggested that people eat Rhubarb leaves. This caused many cases of illness and some deaths in the US.

I have said this before. Many chemicals are misunderstood or misclassified. For example, on one site, EDTA is classed as a toxic substance, but it is commonly used intravenously for heavy metal poisoning. It is quite benign.

Many people forget the fact that the chemicals used to produce digital inks, pigments, and chips are far more toxic than most photographic chemicals.

PE
 

Gerald Koch

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avandesande said:
It is acidosis that kills you. Your body is unable to break the oxalic acid down and your blood ph drops. This is the same mechanism that causes methanol poisoning, but in that case it is formic acid.
Pick your mode of poisoning. "This clear, colorless, sweet-tasting liquid is rapidly and completely absorbed upon ingestion with peak blood levels occurring in 1-4 hours. It has a half-life of 2.5 to 4.5 hours (this may be extended to as long as 17 hours in the presence of ethanol at levels of 100-200 mg/dL). The elimination half-life of ethylene glycol with fomepizole treatment is 11 to 14.75 hours. Ethylene glycol is non-toxic, but is metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase, found in the hepatocytes, into four toxic byproducts: glycoaldehyde, glycolate, glycolic acid, and glyoxylate. These four breakdown products are responsible for the tissue destruction (from calcium oxalate crystals) and metabolic toxicity (high anion gap metabolic acidosis, lactic acidosis, and hypocalcemia). Ethylene glycol has a volume of distribution (0.54-0.8 L/kg) similar to that of total body water. Ethylene glycol is filtered by the renal glomeruli and is passively reabsorbed. Approximately 20% of ethylene glycol is excreted unchanged in the urine. The lethal dose in adults is 1-1.5 mL/kg .
"
 

michael9793

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Aggie said:
No Flouride i any does is a poison. The subsequent studies that have been done show that the calcium derived from fluride is the brittle form that actually causes those funny white spots on teeth. That is a sign of flouride poisoning. Again the one study that was conducted was in the early 40's in Texas by one Dentist. He found that naturally occuring flouride was the only difference between 7 of 43 towns that he studied. In those 7 towns there was a slight decrease in tooth decay. From that study and only that study our great government found a way to dump the flouride that was collect in NJ at the aluminum plants Where down wind there was a 80 % increase of cancers and the first mass concentration of alzimer cases. They put scrubbers on the smoke stacks, the cancer incidence when to normal and the alzimers cases other than the rash that could not be cured, disappeared. That slurry from the stacks is what was put into our water supply. Flouride is and will always be one of the contributing factors to thyroid disease. I have hasimotos. That is why I was going back to school and got that damn degree of mine. I wanted to know. All of this comes out from different lectures at the University of Arizona or the University of Utah, in their various bio and bio chem classes. It was not long ago 2003 that the AMA came out with new guidelines for the levels of thyroid problems. It turned out that all these people who have been thold they were borderline now have a serious problem that was being overlooked. Now draw a corallary between the flouride that is being pushed at us and the major increase in thyroid disease. That and the mass increase in alzimers that until flouride was introduced to the water supply was non existant. Yep the dose is what is important. Tell that to the people who have a sensitivity to phyenolpekontnurics....it causes irreversible brain damage. It is so dangerous that we do PKU tests on our children when they are born to see if they are sensitive to it. What is that fancy sounding little substance? Try nutrasweet/equal/aspartame. Yet how many products are there with it in it? It is just a matter of dose? the PKU test only give you a reading if it is highly sensitive. All those people with slight or medium sensitivity do not rate. They have different problems, the least of which is bad headaches. Just a matter of dose?

Know thy poisons and what really is the bottom line.

Pyro which is being touted as so bad, OXIDIZES once it is mixed into a solution and exposed to air, and goes inert. Inert like it is harmless. Will still stain your hands if you put them into the solution.

OKAY,
Flouride, first of all does not produce the white marks you see on teeth. That is a unmineralized matrex of enamal due usually from a high fever durning the tooth development stage. Second Flourious will produce internal brown staining of the teeth. This can be seen is some midwestern states where there is a high flouride content to the water. Naturally not induced.
Third haven't we gotten off the subject here. I thought we were a photo site not a Biohazardous sounding board.
 

dancqu

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Photo Engineer said:
Oxalic acid ... If it were a strong reducing agent, PE

Old information which I or the source got wrong. Oxalic
acid is not a strong reducing agent. It is used though as
a Primary Standard in the redox titration of at least
permanganate. That it will pull to the manganous.
IIRC, it does so in an acidic solution.

Good thing I was wrong. I may wish to more accurately
quantify some experiments. I've some permanganate and
am testing it for use as an indicator of various wash
scenario efficiencies. Dan
 

Photo Engineer

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Yeah, don't try making up a developer with oxalic acid, and if you do oxidize it, watch out for carbon dioxide. It gives off 2 moles / mole of acid.

PE
 
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