Darkroom Hygene Tips?

pyrogallol, is derived from the galls on walnut trees, and in some cases the walnuts themselves. We need to ban everything with walnuts if it is so dangerous..... The worst thing about pyrogallol is when it is a dry form. You breathe it and it can cause respiratory problems. That is why we encourage people to mix it in well ventilated areas, or wearing a mask. In the wet form it is harmless other than if it is to you personally a skin irritant. We are becoming so fearful of things we have swung the other way to banning dihydromonooxide like they did in Dana Point California. Cadmium is still one of the ingredients used in some topical medicinal ointments. Pyrogallol is in red hair dye. Don't get me started on non homemade hotdogs.

Frank, like everyone else I think you're probably already doing a far, far better job than most of us. The only possible improvement I could think of if you're really worried about the kids getting at stuff is to put locks on the wet and dry cabinets and keep the keys up high, where they can't reach them. I bought a 3ft tall, rolling office supply cabinet with a built-in lock from Staples for $100 (free delivery too) for exactly that purpose. As a side benefit, it's exactly the right hight and width for the Jobo to sit on the top...

Dean

Frank -

The basic black and white darkroom is actually quite safe, and unless you are toning with some of the more exotic compounds, there really isn't much there that is very harmful. I also had two kids (they are both in their 20's now) and had to deal with the potential risks. Caution is a good thing, but it's possible to be so cautious that you create the expectation of dangers that really don't exist. And too much fear will eventually drive you out of the darkroom and into the darkside of digital.

I don't have a very strong disagreement with most of the things you are currently doing although there are a couple of things I would suggest.

First, forget the locked cabinet for chemicals. Instead, put a lock on the door. A locked cabinet won't keep kids away from the working solutions stored under the sink.

Second, don't keep the kids out - give them an opportunity to experience the magic that takes place in the darkroom. Look for opportunities to let them share in your hobby through projects for school, scouts or other activities. Allowing them to experience what actually goes on behind the normally locked door diffuses the risk that their curiosity might cause them to get in when you aren't around, and if you're lucky, it might even stick. (It didn't with my kids.)

As to the things you are thinking about doing:

1. Darkroom chemicals will stain your clothing. An apron is definitely a good idea. Be sure to get one with pockets for pencils, pens, a red flashlight, scissors, and other essential darkroom tools.

2. Second trash can - OK. But dont' worry about the self-closing lid.

3. I agree with the convenience of using liquid chemicals, and yes, they are marginally "safer" becaue you don't get that plume of dust associated with mixing powders to make liquid concentrates. Unfortunately, given the constraints on shipping liquids, liquid concentrates are becoming less available outside major cities. If you have to use powdered chemicals, wear a dust mask while mixing the liquid concentrates.

4. I wouldn't worry about steaming the darkroom after using it to settle chemical dust. Working with liquid chemicals doesn't produce a significant amount of airborn dust. In fact, if you steam it at all, it would be better to do so before using it to control dust in the air that will eventually cause you to acquire skill in print spotting. Frankly, however, if you have good positive pressure ventillation that exhausts outdoors, steaming is probably unnecessary.

5. Darkroom shoes? Perhaps - not so much for safety reasons, but rather to avoid possibly tracking developer that will stain your wife's new white carpeting and create extreme marital stress. But a better idea is to acquire the skills and disciplines necessary to not slop chemicals onto the floor.

6. I have always toned indoors (we have serious winter here so restricting toning to outdoors is not really practical). The most offensive aspect of toning is the hydrogen sulfide gas given off by various sulfur toners - if your darkroom is vented to the outdoors, that shouldn't be a problem. I have always used rubber gloves for toning and also for tray-developing sheet film. I use medical gloves (either latex or nitrile) because I can actually feel through them - those heavy yellow things sold are fine for dishwashing or cleaing toilets, but you need dexterity in the darkroom.

Frank,

I applaud you for your efforts and intentions. You really have a comprehensive and responsible list. Skimming through all this text again, I don't think I saw anything about a face mask and breathing filter for your own protection. I use one from B&H with natural charcoal filters, but I can't find it on their site now to give you a link. I have seen many references on APUG to HEPA filters which are probably even safer than what I have. If you find one or someone else has a link I would like to know about it also.

I go along with locking the door rather than the cabinet. In my own experience, second marriage, no kids first time, former Remington arms pro with guns and ammo, marrying an elementary school teacher with early teen age kids, I would suggest a combination lock. Young kids have an amazing ability to sniff out keys and use them when you aren't home. My wife tells the story of grade school kids being trained not to even touch firearms, then in the absence of parents being filmed picking them up, pointing them at each other and one hopes dry firing. I used a combination lock on the guns and ammo cabinet and then locked the key to the Porsche in there as well.

Go with the Nitrile gloves. Another source mentioned in another thread was Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart’s gloves are the one size fits all. They will do for me but a little tight. Next box will be from a source that has a larger size.

Good luck. Keep them healthy.

Your north OH neighbor.
John Powers

Kino,

I was in college, using the school's darkroom, thru my ninth month of pregnancy with 2 of my kids! They are 12 and 17 now and seem "relatively" normal! (No wierd twitches, no missing limbs). Now all 4 kids come into my darkroom regularly and are allowed to help if they wish. Just use good ol' common sense (don't drink anything, don't play in the chemicals, wash well, etc)

Valerie

jp80874 said:

Frank,

I applaud you for your efforts and intentions. You really have a comprehensive and responsible list. Skimming through all this text again, I don't think I saw anything about a face mask and breathing filter for your own protection. I use one from B&H with natural charcoal filters, but I can't find it on their site now to give you a link. I have seen many references on APUG to HEPA filters which are probably even safer than what I have. If you find one or someone else has a link I would like to know about it also.

I go along with locking the door rather than the cabinet. In my own experience, second marriage, no kids first time, former Remington arms pro with guns and ammo, marrying an elementary school teacher with early teen age kids, I would suggest a combination lock. Young kids have an amazing ability to sniff out keys and use them when you aren't home. My wife tells the story of grade school kids being trained not to even touch firearms, then in the absence of parents being filmed picking them up, pointing them at each other and one hopes dry firing. I used a combination lock on the guns and ammo cabinet and then locked the key to the Porsche in there as well.

Go with the Nitrile gloves. Another source mentioned in another thread was Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart’s gloves are the one size fits all. They will do for me but a little tight. Next box will be from a source that has a larger size.

Good luck. Keep them healthy.

Your north OH neighbor.
John Powers

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If you need respiratory protection, charcoal filters will only suppress odors, not block organic vapors. If you are working with organic solvents or other high-hazard substances that tend to off-gas (ether, sepia toner, paint thinner, etc), get a respirator that can protect you from organic vapors. They are available from Home Depot - best place to look for them is in the paint department. If you are mixing powdered chemicals that are not pre-measured, make sure that your respirator can filter fine particulate matter.

I have had good luck with nitrile and vinyl gloves from the drugstore- Rite Aid and CVS both carry them, in a variety of sizes. When I was tray-developing sheet film, I used the nitrile and/or latex gloves because I develop in pyro developer, and you have to have your hands in the soup the whole time when tray processing.

Aggie said:

pyrogallol, is derived from the galls on walnut trees, and in some cases the walnuts themselves. We need to ban everything with walnuts if it is so dangerous..... The worst thing about pyrogallol is when it is a dry form. You breathe it and it can cause respiratory problems. That is why we encourage people to mix it in well ventilated areas, or wearing a mask. In the wet form it is harmless other than if it is to you personally a skin irritant. We are becoming so fearful of things we have swung the other way to banning dihydromonooxide like they did in Dana Point California. Cadmium is still one of the ingredients used in some topical medicinal ointments. Pyrogallol is in red hair dye. Don't get me started on non homemade hotdogs.

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No, pyro is not "harmless" in the wet form. This is completely wrong. Where do you get these notions of yours? It is toxic, and can be absorbed through the skin. It is poisonous to the liver and kidneys if ingested or absorbed. It is toxic to aquatic life. Will you please stop spreading unfounded rumors of harmlessness? If handled (and disposed of, I might add) properly it poses little risk to anyone or anything, but that doesnt make it a harmless substance. Overreacting to the potential danger isnt helpful, but neither is pretending that they dont exist.



Wayne

I have 5 and 7 year old girls and they both know now to touch anything in the darkroom and in fact have never tried. Both girls wander in (they now know to knock first :rolleyes: ) and sit there watching until boredom sets in.

The main thing to watch out for is their friends who won't know not to touch. A lock on the door is all you need coupled with common sense hygiene and disposal practices. As someone mentioned earlier the cleaning chemicals in our house worry me a lot more.

For more chemical adventures read "Uncle Tungsten-Memories of a Chemical Boyhood" by Oliver Sacks. As a child his parents let him use a room next to the garden for his "experiments", so he would be able to toss burning and explosive substances outside and not burn the house down. He survived and went on to become a world renowned neurologist. His other books are fascinating also.

Richard Wasserman

disfromage said:

As a child his parents let him use a room next to the garden for his "experiments", so he would be able to toss burning and explosive substances outside and not burn the house down.

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When I was in high school my grandmother had a concrete block building built in the backyard because of complaints by the rest of the family about the smells from my chemical experiments. It was built like a dynamite shack so that the force of any explosion would be deflected upwards.

raucousimages said:

Just be smart. Don't eat, drink or breath chemicals and wash your hands. Most things in our darkrooms are very safe used properly. I have used far more dangerous chemicals in worse conditions in my employment than in my darkroom and I was still within OSHA, MIL and EPA specs. I have been in the darkroom for thirty years (I do come out once in a while) with no ill effects. If we scare our children about the darkroom instead of educating them about proper chemical handling where will the next generation of wet process photographers come from? If you want a real scare take a close look at what is in your garage, garden shed, laundry room and under your sink's. Some of those chems are spookey.

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Really? Enjoying a cold bottle of beer is part of my darkroom routine.

Gerald,

I applaud your grandmother!

Richard

Charcol stops both odors and vapors (really the same things). It will not stop dust or fumes(solid particles). There is a different cartrige for dust and fumes.

TheFlyingCamera said:

If you need respiratory protection, charcoal filters will only suppress odors, not block organic vapors.

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Wayne said:

No, pyro is not "harmless" in the wet form. This is completely wrong. Where do you get these notions of yours? It is toxic, and can be absorbed through the skin. It is poisonous to the liver and kidneys if ingested or absorbed. It is toxic to aquatic life. Will you please stop spreading unfounded rumors of harmlessness? If handled (and disposed of, I might add) properly it poses little risk to anyone or anything, but that doesnt make it a harmless substance. Overreacting to the potential danger isnt helpful, but neither is pretending that they dont exist.



Wayne

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anw not gonna get angry about this,,,,,,naw must remain calm,,,,,to hell with that! DO a GOOGLE SEARCH on pyrogallol and the second listing that pops up after the MSDS will be this link http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PY/PYROGALLOL.htm

HMMMMMMMMM ever wonder about that? Maybe those skin diseases are just not smart enough to know that MSDS sheets are worse case scenerios? In the wet form it doesn't go into the respiratory system unless you snort the liquid. READ VERY CAREFULLY the MSDS and you will find it is all about the inhalation. The other things are there but if you were to see an attached risk evaluation stat chart I think the .0005% that might develop those problems would be a risk I would take. Gordon Hutchings who revived pyro, never even wears gloves when he works with his pyro formulas. That I knwo from standing next to him a darkroom while taking his workshop.

Now why do I know worry about it for myself? Because if you go to a Hairdresser and get their botles of chemicals for red hair dye.....which has to be applied to the scalp.....it contains pyrogallol. I've been this shy and retiring my whole life so any problems from it have not happend to me and I get direct contact that doesn't go away. It stayed on my head until I would cut it off.

As to proper disposal get real. Pyro oxidizes extremely fast! It is inert long before you would dump it down a drain. That straight from Chemistry classes. OH by the way did I tell you I did study a little Chemistry? A little degree about Molecular biochem hangs on my wall. That was earned in 94.

Scare tactics and false claims are exactly why people are afraid of the word chemical. I've even heard on man say that my arms were going to turn to stone from using pyro, even when I had gloves on so they wouldn't get stained. He was the same person who said that using potassium ferricynide to bleach out pictures would kill me, because I was gassing the whol byuilding and others would die as well. Lack of knowledge and spreading false old wives tales does not engender us to those who want analog photography stopped because of exactly what you have claimed.

RESPECT CHEMCIALS BUT DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THEM! LEARN ABOUT THEM, AND NOT JUST FROM THE MSDS. THERE IS MORE INFORMATION THAN THE WORST CASE SCENERIOS. You might not put your foot in your mouth next time.

Kino said:

Strangely enough, I used to play with Mercury as well.

Fumes condensed in this pipe and Mercury pooled in the
bottom of the 3" diameter pipe.

Of course in the process of collecting it, we had to roll it
around in our hands and let it run through our fingers...
Somehow I am still alive.

Now at work, if we drop one Kodak Process Thermometer,
the Hazmat Team has to be called out, the building
evacuated and a day's work scratched while the
area is decontaminated.

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Elemental mercury occurs in the native state although
it is not considered a noble metal such as silver or gold.

Quick Silver, AFAIK, is not a problem. It is it's compounds
that are toxic. So, mercury is kept out of materials which
can generate flue exhausts. But not enough is being kept
out. Tons of it's compounds are being let loose by coal
fired generating plants.

The FDA has warned against the consumption of several
species of fish. New borns are not to be fed any Albacore
Tuna and other tunas only in reduced amounts. Where
ever the rain falls. Dan

dancqu said:

The FDA has warned against the consumption of several
species of fish. New borns are not to be fed any Albacore
Tuna and other tunas only in reduced amounts. Where
ever the rain falls. Dan

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Yet that same government puts flouride in our drinking water supply and manufacturers are putting it in baby formulas. Did you know Fouride is one of the most toxic poisons known to man? It is also a substance that kills your thyroid gland? I would be more worried about the flouridated water supply than most the chemicals we use for photography. Ever wonder why many of the countries in the world have banned flouride?

Well, thanks to everyone again!

Seems the subject touched on a sensitive spot of this hobby and everyone has had to form an opinion one way or another in the past.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Especially glad to be able to share the stories of families and darkroom co-existence with my wife; thanks to all who wrote in and let me know.

A couple of you expressed concern that I didn't list a respirator; I DO have one and forgot to list it. I use a 3M half-face respirator with organic vapor cartridges and HEPA filters. I used the mask at work when cleaning out motion picture printers or cleaning machines that used perchloroethylene solvent. 3M went and changed their mask design about a year ago so that new filter media would not fit the old masks, so our shop conveniently (for 3M) had to totally retool with new masks and filter media. Of course, these "obsolete" masks could not grace the shelves of our shop, so I snagged a several year personal supply of "obsolete" brand-new filter media out of the dumpster and took my old mask home for painting and darkroom use. I shouldn't have to worry about filters for a while.

Never though that Army gas mask training would come in hand, but by gosh, it did and I know how to maintain and care for my mask!

As for keeping the kids out beyond using a lock on the door, a co-workers suggested that I have both of my daughters design and paint a special sign for the door of the darkroom that says something like, "Magic Photo Room -- Enter only when Dad is here". The suggestion being that they would have a vested interest in obeying a sign they themselves designed and remember the message.

For now, I plan to process and print their film (they both have cheap 35mm plastic cameras from a charity store and I bulk load T-Max 100 for them) until they get a bit older and Mom has more time to be comfortable with the situation.

Don't worry, they will be in there with me sooner or later!

As for Pyro, I will say that I still plan to use it and treat it with respect, but the interesting byproduct of this exchange is that I will start treating Metol, Hydroquinone and all other chemicals with equal respect; something I really didn't think too much about in the past.

Mind you, I'm not going to freak out about it, just adopt a uniform way of handling all chemicals.

Maybe if I treat them all equally with respect and use good hygiene for EVERYTHING, I won't have to worry about abusing any one chemical and can get back to trying to be a good photographer and craftsman and not dwell on potential health hazards, which as we all know, can come from just about any situation/location in this modern age.

Again, thanks everyone, you have set my mind at ease.

Frank W.

Frank, there are two schools of thought about chemicals, in general. One is practised by the "Green Weenies" who decry any chemical in any quantity or its use. It is all bad, avoid it like the plague!

Then again, there are others among us who follow the policy of "Wholistic Chemical Abuse" which demands a continued subjugation of the body to all forms of chemistry, in order to build a natural immunity and physical tolerance. Personally, I favor a policy of "Wholistic Drug Abuse" in order to have a moderate view of things in general. One man's poison is another man's high. tim

As Paracelsus noted 'It is the dose that makes the poison.' As a rough rule of thumb the common developing agents are about as toxic as Tylenol. Check the LD50 doses if you doubt me. If you take enough Tylenol at any one time or a small amount over a long period of time it will destroy your liver and kidneys. Yet Tylenol is sold over the counter to any warm body with enough coin.

Regarding pyro and walnuts.

My gardening book tells me not to plant a garden near walnet type trees. The poisons from the tree will kill the garden! Very interesting.....

Point not to have darkroom near walnut tree perhaps... unless developing with pyro.

This may not be P. Correct. But I can see being carefull with pyro and pyrocat is much safer than the others. and being safe with amidol ( you don't wear goves people know you used it for weeks. take it from some one who went brain dead and forgot he was using amidol that day) but there are more heavy metals, posions in the air and food we eat than anything else we do. Kino has already found that out and thank God it turned out okay. I have been doing photography for 40 years and never used gloves for dektol D-76 or stop bath. I use different chemicals now and mix with a ventilator and gloves, but that is becasue of the amidol and pyro. I say just keep the kids out of the basement and you should be okay. other than that. never have them down there durning mixing.

Aggie said:

anw not gonna get angry about this,,,,,,naw must remain calm,,,,,to hell with that! DO a GOOGLE SEARCH on pyrogallol and the second listing that pops up after the MSDS will be this link http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PY/PYROGALLOL.htm

HMMMMMMMMM ever wonder about that?

Do I ever wonder about WHAT? If you think you are being clear, think again

Maybe those skin diseases are just not smart enough to know that MSDS sheets are worse case scenerios? In the wet form it doesn't go into the respiratory system unless you snort the liquid. READ VERY CAREFULLY the MSDS and you will find it is all about the inhalation.

I have read the MSDS and I dont interpret it that way at all. Thats because they dont say that.

The other things are there but if you were to see an attached risk evaluation stat chart I think the .0005% that might develop those problems would be a risk I would take. Gordon Hutchings who revived pyro, never even wears gloves when he works with his pyro formulas. That I knwo from standing next to him a darkroom while taking his workshop.


And my grandfather smoked for 70 years and didnt die of lung cancer. Do you think that proves anything? You continually use pointless little anecdotes and little else to bolster your argument.

Now why do I know worry about it for myself? Because if you go to a Hairdresser and get their botles of chemicals for red hair dye.....which has to be applied to the scalp.....it contains pyrogallol. I've been this shy and retiring my whole life so any problems from it have not happend to me and I get direct contact that doesn't go away. It stayed on my head until I would cut it off.

And what is the concentration of pyrogallol in hair dye? Thats an important part of this equation--an actual fact-that you have left out. By the way, pyrogallol is illegal in cosmetics in some countries, though without examining it further that fact in itself doesnt mean any more than your anecdotes. But it is more thought-provoking.

As to proper disposal get real. Pyro oxidizes extremely fast! It is inert long before you would dump it down a drain. That straight from Chemistry classes. OH by the way did I tell you I did study a little Chemistry? A little degree about Molecular biochem hangs on my wall. That was earned in 94.

So on one hand we have you with a degree in biochemistry saying one thing, and on the other hand we have the vast majority...well no...ALL...published data including but not limited to MSDS painting another picture. I am not a chemist, but I know a good factual argument when I see one. So far I havent seen one from you. If you are a biochemist, you should be able to do a much better job of explaining and supporting your argument. Please do.

Scare tactics and false claims are exactly why people are afraid of the word chemical. I've even heard on man say that my arms were going to turn to stone from using pyro, even when I had gloves on so they wouldn't get stained. He was the same person who said that using potassium ferricynide to bleach out pictures would kill me, because I was gassing the whol byuilding and others would die as well.

Yes, well I'm very sorry about your past bad experiences but I am not that person and I am not saying anything even remotely similar. I am simply responding to your cavalier and irresponsible statement that pyro is harmless aside from inhalation of the powder. I am also sick of being accused of using "scare tactics" by you. It appears that you havent read or comprehended anything I've written

Lack of knowledge and spreading false old wives tales does not engender us to those who want analog photography stopped because of exactly what you have claimed.

RESPECT CHEMCIALS BUT DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THEM!
LEARN ABOUT THEM, AND NOT JUST FROM THE MSDS. THERE IS MORE INFORMATION THAN THE WORST CASE SCENERIOS. You might not put your foot in your mouth next time.

Click to expand...

I hardly feel the need to remove my foot from anywhere for pointing out the obvious problems with your statements about chemical safety and disposal, and the lack of anything but anecdotes and appeals to (your) authority to back them up. Although I'm not a chemist, I do know someone who has been a chemist with EPA for over 40 years. I will run some of your ideas past him and report back if cares to comment on it. I'm not sure if this will fall under his area of expertise anymore than having a darkroom and a degree in biochem makes it fall under yours. I'm sure if he differs with anything you say he will be labelled an ultra-paranoid scare-monger though.



Wayne

Aggie said:

Yet that same government puts flouride in our drinking water supply and manufacturers are putting it in baby formulas. Did you know Fouride is one of the most toxic poisons known to man? It is also a substance that kills your thyroid gland? I would be more worried about the flouridated water supply than most the chemicals we use for photography. Ever wonder why many of the countries in the world have banned flouride?

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What a particular thing to say. As I mentioned before it's all in the dose. In small amounts fluorine is an important trace element in the human body, important for strong bones and teeth. Take too much and its poisonous. Tooth enamel is made of a mineral called fluoroapatite. When there is too little fluoride in the human diet then tooth enamel consists of hydroxyapatite which is softer and more susceptable to decay.

Please do not scream.
Thanks.

Wayne said:

I hardly feel the need to remove my foot from anywhere for pointing out the obvious problems with your statements about chemical safety and disposal, and the lack of anything but anecdotes and appeals to (your) authority to back them up. Although I'm not a chemist, I do know someone who has been a chemist with EPA for over 40 years. I will run some of your ideas past him and report back if cares to comment on it. I'm not sure if this will fall under his area of expertise anymore than having a darkroom and a degree in biochem makes it fall under yours. I'm sure if he differs with anything you say he will be labelled an ultra-paranoid scare-monger though.



Wayne

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Try the MERCK MANUAL. I WAS WAITING FOR YOUR OVER GREENIE ATTITUDE TO REAR IT'S HEAD AGAIN. eleventh edition is the one I had through all my chemistry classes. page 1272 item number 8010. If you are capable of knowing what that manual is, then you will also be able to combine the chemicals. If so you will know exactly what you claim is a thing that should be spread on my garden periodically, a bit of fecal matter that helps in growth.