Darkroom Hygene Tips?

OK, I know this subject has been discussed many times in generally Pyro-related postings on APUG and THIS posting was also brought about by my concern in using pyro in my darkroom, but I found no general Darkroom Hygiene thread in my searches.

If there is such a thread, Please clue me in and cut this short...

This all started when I made the offhand remark to my wife that I needed to get down in the basement and do my weekly moping and wipe down of my darkroom to keep any possible chemical dust from migrating outside the darkroom.

Oh boy; I thought I was being responsible by disclosing this but it created a real confrontation and my Pyrocat HD is yet sealed in my cabinet!

We have 2 children, ages 4 and 8, but they have only physically been in the darkroom twice, neither time when I had active chemistry out. This exchange convinced me they will not visit the room again until they get beyond puberty...

Now, I have not been up and going for over a few weeks and have been quite careful in my chemical handling, but I admit I could do better.

After the situation calmed down and we discussed my precautions, I started wondering what I can do to further limit chemical exposure for my family.

1. My darkroom is in the basement and has a drop ceiling that should be a fair vapor barrier.

2. It is well ventilated and no odors have been detected so far in any of the living areas.

3. I am careful to use hand towels marked exclusively for the darkroom and wash them separately from any other batches of clothes.

4. I rinse all film and paper rejects before discarding them in my darkroom only trashcan.

5. I wipe-down all surfaces with a damp sponge and mop the floor with a dedicated mop (flushing effluent down basement toilet followed by a fish), NOT sweep, at least once a week.

LOL -- that should have been "flush" not a FISH. Weird.

6. I wear dishwashing rubber gloves when developing film and rinse them frequently in a tub of standing water I keep in the sink for that very purpose. I am not quite as good when printing, as I have trouble using the tongs with those thick rubber gloves, but admit that I DO have nitrile gloves available, but have not made use of them. I still use the tub of water to frequently wash my hands if I manage to touch any liquids, if for no other reason than to avoid ruining my printing paper! I always wash my hands with soap and hot water after leaving the darkroom.

7. I keep chemical concentrates in a wall mounted cabinet, mix only what I need and wash out all containers before discarding.

8. Working solutions are kept under the sink tightly capped and I take care to wash off the exterior of the bottles before returning them to the shelf under the sink at the end of each session or immediately if they need to be returned for space considerations.

Now, as for possibly improving, I have come up with the following:

1. Darkroom Apron; duh, I totally forgot this...

2. Trashcan with self closing lid? 2nd on to store used darkroom towels?

3. Buy liquid chemistry when possible, mix powders outside?

4. Steam-up (it is very small, 7 x 9 foot) the room before I leave to settle any possible dust?

5. Keep a pair of darkroom only deck shoes to change into and out of when I go to work in that room?

6. Haven't toned any prints yet, but tone outside? Precautions for doing this?

Other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Frank W.

It sounds to me like you are already taking precautions far above what most people take. Personally, I just try not to spash stuff around. Clean it up if I do and wear gloves when handling Pyro. That's about it. It's not nuclear waste, after all.

your ready to try plutoniumol.

I try not to pee in the corner.

Wow.
We know allot more these days, and I don't soak my hands in chemicals, etc. Try the nitrile gloves, they're fabulous. The most obnoxious thing is probably the handling of dry chemicals. I wear a filter mask when I handle dry chemicals. (mixing my paper developer)

I wear an apron to keep from staining my clothes, clean up after a session, and keep chemicals locked up.

One thing I have noticed, and point out to people who wag there fingers at my darkroom chems, is that most darkroom people do a far better, and safer job of handling and storing their chems, than the average person does with household chemicals. Some chemicals in common household use leave my darkroom stuff just standing there, in terms of reactive potential, caustic potential, and toxicity.

It sounds like your doing a very good darkroom hygiene.

My young son has been in my darkroom, and watched a print appear in the developer. (He loved it) He was well supervised by another adult and was not allowed to touch anything.

When he is a little bit older, I expect I will be teaching him to print,
including proper chemical procedures.

Well, it is good to know I have been doing a good job so far (other than the apron).

Just don't want to loose a kid to this hobby; already nearly lost one to E.Coli from ground beef. Nothing like watching your 4 year old nearly die from eating hamburger...

I don't want to go through that again.

If anyone thinks of anything, let me know.

Frank

Having had some skin problems associated with over exposure to the sun when I was a teenager/young adult, I have had regular contact with a dermatologist for many years.

I would suggest that you don't wash your hands in hot water, use water cooler than your normal body temperature. The reasoning behind this is to ensure that your pores don't open up due to the heat of the water allowing chemical traces still on your outer skin to migrate to the next layer of skin.

I also use a pH neutral, soap like substance to ensure the pH of my skin is either restored to it's correct state or not changed. A talk to your chemist will inform you what is around, in your part of the world.

By the way as a youngster aged around six, I was regularly helping my grandfather develop and print in the bathroom and have been hanging around chemicals ever since just using common sense.

From about the age of eight I was printing my own pictures which were restricted to one frame a roll in my mothers box brownie. If you wait until puberty kicks in, I reckon you've lost them!

Mick.

Kino -
As noted in some replies above, I suspect you practice safer darkroom techniques than most of us. Certainly safer practices than me....

In general (because it sounds like the largest problem is you and your wife's concern for your children) I suspect the biggest, if indeed the only risk they might face as long as they are not playing around in the chemistry is exposure to particulate matter. That would involve avoiding exposure when mixing dry chemistry. I would mix all chemistry outdoors, away from play areas, etc. I have read of techniques to minimize "dusting" when mixing chemicals - for example, you can cut the end of a dry chemical packet off, then submerge the packet in water and open it up, rather than just dumping the powder in the water.

Certain chemicals are "higher risk" - you know of the risk of pyro, of course, but other toners/developers/reagents can have higher exposure risks than others. Material Data Safety Sheets are available online from a variety of sources if you want further and more specific information. Many of the chemical supply companies have toll-free numbers, and have been happy to talk with me when I have called them.

Liquid chemistry seems to have less risk of airborne exposures, but if you have worked in closed quarters with Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner than you know that liquids are not "risk-free". However, if your darkroom is well-ventilated and you don't detect odors in the living areas, I would think you are safe.

Hmmm....I guess the summary is 1. Mix dry chemistry away from the house/kids. 2. Don't let the kids touch the chemistry. Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job, though, and I wouldn't imagine there are any real health hazards to you or your family as long as you continue your operating procedures.

Also, for what it's worth, an epidemiological study of workers in the Eastman Color Print and Processing labs found no significant excess mortality/sickness/incidence of cancer compared to control. Sure, different chemicals are involved, and different procedures, but I would suspect that your precautions might be even more stringent than theirs, or at least more closely followed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7119922&dopt=Abstract

I seem to remember seeing a report that traditional B+W developers/printers had even lower mortality rates than control populations, but I can't locate a study and might have been hallucinating or reading an unfounded rumor.

At any rate, keep up the good practices. At least you've inspired me to get some gloves!

cheers,
peter

Frank. You have completed level 2 decon. Proceed to
level 3. Levels 4 and 5 will follow. You DID see
the movie; Andromeda Strain. Dan

I'd emphasize the nitrile gloves - I tried dishwashing gloves when developing with amidol and got stained fingernails - showing the gloves were not impervious to the chemical. With nitrile gloves, there's no stain. I find them at my local Walgreen's. They're also at Home Depot and other places.

I live near the beach where the wind is always blowing, so mixing chemicals outside is impossible. I mix dry chemicals in the darkrrom, wearing a mask, and vacuum afterwards using a machine with a bag and a HEPA filter. Less secure, or bagless, machines may well blow the chemicals around rather than remove them.
juan

Do you lock it?

By all means lock the darkroom. That is the best strategy. IMHO, much of the rest is paranoid histrionics... Wear gloves if sensitive, have ventilation, and dont drink the solutions...

The biggest thing is to clean up any spills before they dry and can later become airborne as dust and the use of good gloves.
I have two small kids at home as well. I keep everything locked up. Some chemicals I simply would never have around with kids in the house. Any cyanide based fixers like some used for wet plate or mercury compounds that are used for negative intensification.

What amazes me is that when I was a kid in the 50's I (and others my age and older) routinely played with liquid mercury. It was cool to put a blob of it in your palm and watch the way it rolled around. I can't even be 100% certain that I never actually tried to taste it, though it had no smell and I don't remember that ever being a temptation. And who knows (I sure don't) what stuff was included in my childhood chemistry set. Whatever it was I'm sure barely 10% of it would be offered nowadays. I also helped my dad in his darkroom and loved being in there. Bottom line....I'm still here at 59 and there have been no ill effects that I know of. Smoking, drinking, red meat and all the other temptations I succumbed to at various points in my life have probably been far more harmful.

Just one thing to add regarding present day safety. As Juan mentioned, I wear a mask now whenever I mix powdered chemicals and use tongs to handle prints in their various baths. I do put my hands in ID11 when I tray develop sheet film which I probably shouldn't do, but that's about it.

Sounds like you've done about all you could possibly do short of going digital (and the toxins in that arena are legion as well...they just don't go down the drain right away.)

Frank, you are doing everything very well. The problem with pyrogallol (not catecol as in pyrocat hd, but not sure about that one) is that it is a benzine derivative. This can zip right through the skin's protective barrier as if it weren't there. That having been said, the amount of developer in its useful dilution is so small as to be "not a problem" if gloves are used. I second the nitrile gloves (Harbor Freight in boxes of 100).

The chemicals used in household cleaning are worse in many instances than anything you have in the darkroom. Pure "hypo" is used in swimming pools as a neutralizer, people swim in that stuff. Bleach is pretty nasty as a household chemical, but no one worries about it do they? Remember the third most important rule of plumbing and you will be fine (Don't lick your fingers). tim

Like John, I findly recall the days of playing with mercury in my basement. Ahh the good old days! I definitely didnt put it in my mouth though. I was helping my dad in the darkroom at an early age too. Nothing was locked up in those days. I wouldnt have a darkroom now if I hadnt been exposed to it an early age. My memories of how "cool" it was are still a motivating force several decades later.

One last thing that Frank could do instead of mixing outside is to build a glove box with clear lid that can be periodically decontaminated. I've often considered doing this myself because I can be klutzy sometimes, but its never gottten past the consideration stage. Personally I dont think its needed from a health standpoint, it would be more for peace of mind than anything else.



Wayne

noseoil said:

Frank, you are doing everything very well. The problem with pyrogallol (not catecol as in pyrocat hd, but not sure about that one) is that it is a benzine derivative. This can zip right through the skin's protective barrier as if it weren't there. That having been said, the amount of developer in its useful dilution is so small as to be "not a problem" if gloves are used. I second the nitrile gloves (Harbor Freight in boxes of 100).

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I'm in trouble, pyrogallol is one of the active ingredients in red hair dye! Some would argue that there have been ill effects to me, but ya know I have been this way long before I started going red. Maybe it is being a true naturally born blonde.

Most people are scared when you mention chemicals. Most darkroom chemicals are harmless especially as diluted as we use them. Mix dry chemicals with a mask. Amidol will stain your hands, and other than that is not that harmful, but some have skin sensitivities so it is realative. I do like you and keep a bucket of water near me when working with amidol and rinse my examination type gloved hand in it as I'm working. The time it would take for that chemical to penetrate the glove is not going to happen during a full day working with the solution. As for paper developers, Most are not going to cause any problems what so ever. Cleasers your wife uses and the vinegar she cooks with are more potent. What you need to be careful of is the silver, and it is in such minute amounts as to be laughable. DO NOT DRINK YOUR CHEMICALS, even though nutrasweet/equal/aspertame is far worse for you to imbibe. Once you finish with your developer stop and fix, put a piece of steel wool in it and let the silver plate out and the rest mix together and it will nuetralize into water and salts.

I applaud you for your concerns and safety measures, but some of it is way overboard. Unless you particularly have a sensitivity, most of the chemicals we use are harmless. Dr. Pepper the soft drink has antifreeze as one of the presevatives, and we think nothing of drinking it, and that is far worse than our chemicals. Also just use and old shirt as an apron. It will be fine to protect you and catch the stains. I use old flannel shirts.

avandesande said:

your ready to try plutoniumol.

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This joke isn't too far from a glimmer of truth. A few decades ago, uranium toner was all the rage. Apparently it tones prints a reddish-brown color. You can still find formulas for it on the Internet. The most exotic item it contains is uranium nitrate. I honestly have no idea where you'd go to buy that, though, and I have no interest in finding out.

Just out of curiosity, I tried Googling "plutonium toner." I got mostly hits on ad-supported sites with news stories about plutonium and ads for laser printer toner cartridges. I did have my best laugh of the day, though: In the upper-right corner of the Google search was a paid ad that read "Great deals on Plutonium; Shop on eBay and Save!" At least, I hope that's something I should be laughing at rather than horrified about.

Peter Coats said:

Certain chemicals are "higher risk" - you know of the risk of pyro, of course, but other toners/developers/reagents can have higher exposure risks than others. Material Data Safety Sheets are available online from a variety of sources if you want further and more specific information.

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When reviewing MSDS forms, keep in mind that they're written from a legal "CYA" perspective. Some are worse than others in this respect (you can find multiple MSDSs for any given chemical; just Google them). For instance, Dead Link Removed MSDS for water makes it sound like something that deserves moderate caution when handling.

Moving back to the original question, though, one safety measure relates to Peter's observation: Specifically, you can switch to lower-risk chemicals whenever possible. For instance, phenidone is generally regarded as safer than metol, and ascorbates are generally regarded as safer than hydroquinone. Thus, you could switch from metol/hydroquinone (MQ) developers (such as D-76) to phenidone/ascorbate (PC) developers (such as XTOL). Unfortunately, choices in commercial PC developers are limited, but there are plenty of mix-it-yourself formulas out there. OTOH, the mix-it-yourself approach means you'll have to deal with powdered chemicals rather than pre-mixed liquid ones.

Even if you don't want to mix your own, you might want to look up health and safety information on common darkroom chemistry ingredients. Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook has a chapter on this, and similar information is available online, both in MSDSs and in photography-related sources, although I don't happen to have any bookmarks handy.

Thanks everyone, all good replies and a lot of good tips in there!

Wonder if it would be good fodder to start up an FAQ for chemical safety for this site? I'd be happy to work on it in my spare time if there were a place reserved to present it. Sean?

As for the darkroom, I haven't been actually locking it, but the hasp is high enough they cannot reach it; guess I had go ahead and really lock it, cause I know how resourceful kids can be when the old curiosity kicks in...

Tim, don't lick your fingers? That's a mighty fine rule for a plumber! That reminds me, I need to replace that wax seal in my basement toilet soon...

Strangely enough, I used to play with Mercury as well.

There was a hill we used to ride our bikes to where a vent pipe from an oil well stuck out. Fumes condensed in this pipe and Mercury pooled in the bottom of the 3" diameter pipe. We took sticks and raked it out into pop bottles. Our grade school science teacher paid us $5 a bottle for the stuff; easy money (we thought).

Of course in the process of collecting it, we had to roll it around in our hands and let it run through our fingers... Somehow I am still alive.

Now at work, if we drop one Kodak Process Thermometer, the Hazmat Team has to be called out, the building evacuated and a day's work scratched while the area is decontaminated.

I'm happy to be careful for my family and co-workers, but you have to wonder sometimes...

Frank, we'll keep your safety practices and enshrine them in the Constitution of APUG!

I would add only one thing: have you had a small talk with your kids, perhaps with your wife around, explaining them roughly what you are doing, and why they shouldn't fool around your darkroom? The lock is a good idea, but you should also prep your kids to understand that your darkroom is a pretty boring place (no you can't mix all the chemicals and create a giant explosion as in the B-movies). I'm just thinking about the reverse psychology effect: if something is forbidden, then kids WILL be tempted to fool around.

My dad always had a darkroom in the house, in a separate room, but me and my brother knew what it was for, and although we did scoot around (wow! a big thing!) we knew about the chemicals and never attempted anything. But we were also pretty even-tempered kids, and my dad told me that even if I mixed everything together, the stuff would just neutralize itself (dev+stop; fix+HCA) and not make a funny explosion. I did worse stuff on his woodworking, though...

Just be smart. Don't eat, drink or breath chemicals and wash your hands. Most things in our darkrooms are very safe used properly. I have used far more dangerous chemicals in worse conditions in my employment than in my darkroom and I was still within OSHA, MIL and EPA specs. I have been in the darkroom for thirty years (I do come out once in a while) with no ill effects. If we scare our children about the darkroom instead of educating them about proper chemical handling where will the next generation of wet process photographers come from? If you want a real scare take a close look at what is in your garage, garden shed, laundry room and under your sink's. Some of those chems are spookey.

I bilt my first darkroom in a dirt basement behind a coal burning furnace when I was 8 years old. That was in 1937, and I am still around and spend at least part of nearlyevery dayin the darkroom either at home or at the college where I teach.

We raise 4 daughters with a darkroom in the house. Two of them were doing their own processing and printing by the time they were 10 years old. All are married now and have normal children and grandchildren.

We have always been reasonably careful about the chemicals, expecially mixing the powders. Since I compound most of my own chemicals this is a constant thing. I even use uranium toner a few times prior to WWII, and this was mixed from reagents and powders.

I agree with those who say that the household chemicals are far more toxic, and available to children, than most anything in your darkroom. Have you developed film or paper in coffee yet? The acid therein is a very close cousin of pyrogallol (pyrogallic acid).

I believe in caution, but it seems to me you are more than cautious enough. The dust mask while handling dry chemicals, washing down surfaces, etc. is surely providing enough protection for you and your family.

Don't make darkroom work a chore, it should be fun.

srs5694 said:

A few decades ago, uranium toner was all the rage. Apparently it tones prints a reddish-brown color. You can still find formulas for it on the Internet. The most exotic item it contains is uranium nitrate. I honestly have no idea where you'd go to buy that, though, and I have no interest in finding out.

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Commercially obtainable uranium salts are not particularly radioactive since they are made from depleted uranium. That is uranium from which all the daughter isotopes have been removed. It is these daughter isotopes that are highly radioactive. Uranium itself is a weak alpha emitter. Alpha particals are stopped by a single layer of paper.

However, uranium is a heavy metal poison like mercury and lead and it is here where precautions need to be taken.

BTW, the bright orange glaze used for Fiesta Ware and other pottery contains uranium. Years ago, a friend of mine had an orange coffee mug from Mexico that he had used used for years. You guessed it -- hotter than a 20 buck revolver.

Kino said:

Other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Frank W.

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I think some of your precautions are reasonable since you are working with pyrogallol. However, in total, I think you are being overly cautious.

mhv said:

Frank, we'll keep your safety practices and enshrine them in the Constitution of APUG!

I would add only one thing: have you had a small talk with your kids, perhaps with your wife around, explaining them roughly what you are doing, and why they shouldn't fool around your darkroom? The lock is a good idea, but you should also prep your kids to understand that your darkroom is a pretty boring place (no you can't mix all the chemicals and create a giant explosion as in the B-movies). I'm just thinking about the reverse psychology effect: if something is forbidden, then kids WILL be tempted to fool around.

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You're so right. My brother and I never did anything too dangerous with the unlocked chemicals, but we simply couldnt resist the temptation of one padlocked cabinet in the basement. We regularly took the hinges off so we could peruse the treasure trove of nudie pics we found inside. Never underestimate the skills and ambition of kids locked out of something...


Wayne