Darkroom and real estate

MattKing · Jun 28, 2022

One of the advantages of the world of darkrooms is that one can do very effective work with all sorts of solutions.
Some are more temporary and less convenient than others.
I've been doing most of my work in temporary darkrooms for at least two decades.
Advising people of less perfect solutions is not a bad idea - it can get them started, it can get them to the stage where they are doing very high quality work and, yes, it can get them looking for plumbers!
FWIW, I saw no consternation in Pieter 12's response to M Carter's useful post.
Instead, I saw a post that encouraged people who didn't have the option to modify the plumbing.

The bathroom and Temporary darkroom thread is evidence of that:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bathroom-and-other-temporary-makeshift-darkrooms.35581/

mshchem · Jun 29, 2022

M Carter said:
Not necessarily if you own the home. If there's a room with a wall against a bathroom or laundry room, you may be able to easily tap into the supply and drain. Open a chunk of wall, shut the water off, tap into the supply (depending on what's in there, PEX, copper, old houses may even have steel). Copper or PEX is pretty simple. Then PEX to your sink. Tapping into a tub or shower drain might be tougher, but remember you're doing a counter-level drain so maybe not bad, and the existing drain is most likely PVC unless the home is pretty old (hint - the laundry room wall will already have a drain pipe going up to about 3-4', easy pickin's). If the house has a crawl space, the world is yours as far as layout for plumbing.

It doesn't have to look good, you can patch the wall back up with trim pieces for the plumbing, and you can make a great sink from plywood and porch paint and 2x4 support, stick a shelf under it. My 30x40 developing tray is plywood and porch paint and has held up great, and it probably "holds" more water than a darkroom sink ever will, since sinks are mostly for spill protection and ease of cleanup. You'd probably want a cheap faucet and one of those hand-showers with a hose (or a dish-sink version) would be great to have. When you sell, tear it all out and patch the wall back up.

If you're not a DIY kinda guy, you can probably find a handyman or plumber to do the work - it's really not complex, shouldn't require a licensed plumber since it's essentially a "temporary" thing. Really, in such a situation, my #1 concern would be what's on the floor and under it - carpet on subfloor, I'd pull the carpet up and slap some linoleum down. at least where the wet side is.

If you want a darkroom bad enough, I could see the whole thing costing less than two or three hundred bucks or so, even less if you can do the work or have a buddy/cousin.

I agree a darkroom only needs to be a dark room. I've done my own plumbing on my last 3 darkrooms. With the information available today, simple no torch fittings it's fun. One needs to be careful with electric work, but minor work is no biggie. Heavy-duty extension cords plugged into a good gfci outlet gets you started.

mshchem · Jun 29, 2022

Building inspection is something else to consider. I agree that a bathroom is a perfectly acceptable setup. Anything that gets one going.

perkeleellinen · Jun 29, 2022

Those of you using bathrooms - do you have a second one in your houses? How are you convincing everyone you live with to hold their bladders?

For the last six years I've used my son's bedroom as a temporary darkroom - setting up when he's in school and cleaning up before he gets home. Having a Nova really helps eliminate smell. However, I'm losing / have lost that option as he's getting older and wants his own space. At a loss as to how I can print now, my short term option has been to project and I haven't shot a single roll of negative film in over a year now.

guangong · Jun 29, 2022

In early 1970s my darkroom was a very small room with no running water, but housed enlarger, chemicals, and processing equipment. Water for mixing developer and fixer stored in gallon jugs. So film development and printing done in this room. Thorough washing done in bathtub. Not as convenient as fully equipped dark room but some of my best work was done under these conditions.

VinceInMT · Jun 29, 2022

I agree with M Carter that setting up a darkroom can be a low-cost project and, if you own the home, pretty easy to do. I had dry darkrooms for years until ‘92 when I bought a house with a basement that had an unfinished room without a window. I was able to run hot and cold water from the utility/ laundry room across the hall using 1/2” PVC and snaking the pipe between the overhead floor joists to get there. The drain was a bigger challenge and my original plan was to place a bucket under the sink and use a sump pump to move the effluent across the hall to the sink in the laundry room. However, I had a drain problem in the line from the kitchen and had to replace a section of pipe that ran under the concrete darkroom floor which provided a perfect opportunity to tie the darkroom sink into it. I did install a ball valve to isolate the darkroom sink from the main drain when not in use. The floor is plain concrete but has been on my list of projects lay down some laminate of some kind. I keep an eye on the ReStore for enough that will do the job.

MattKing · Jun 29, 2022

perkeleellinen said:
Those of you using bathrooms - do you have a second one in your houses? How are you convincing everyone you live with to hold their bladders?

My wife is very accommodating, and both the toilet and bathroom sink remain available, because I use the tub and shower for water and trays.
I also have paper safes that permit putting an exposed print aside for a couple of minutes before developing them.
It is easy enough to adapt to realities when you think ahead about it.
If I'm doing any big print runs, I wait until my wife is out somewhere .

M Carter · Jun 29, 2022

MattKing said:
My wife is very accommodating...

That's really top-of-the-list for making a darkroom!

I'm lucky in that - when my three kids were teens - we bought a 2-story duplex as it was a cheap way to get lots of bedrooms in a nice walkable neighborhood. We opened up the wall to the front stairs and it's essentially the same house upstairs and down; I got the living/dining room upstairs for office/studio space and stopped renting a studio, so it all worked out.

But the upstairs kitchen was pretty-much still a 1930's deal, we hauled the appliances out and it was a junk room for years, until a little light bulb went off in my head saying "you have an enlarger in the attic, dude". It's so damn nice to have a dedicated space, and the Mrs. doesn't ever have to see/smell it. I can run in there and make litho masks while big video (work) files are rendering, keep projects set up for days. Freaking heaven!

Funny thing, the house had back stairs as it was a 2-story rental, we tore those out to have a bigger kitchen downstairs. The empty space upstairs? I converted it to a darkroom spray booth, I can spray canvases with liquid emulsion up there which is awesome.

Sirius Glass · Jun 29, 2022

M Carter said:
If you'd read my comment, you'd notice I mentioned carpet.

I've done the dry room here, wet room there thing before, personally wouldn't be interested in that again, life's too short. I gave the OP some ideas on being able to create a full darkroom vs. a half-assed solution if he's the homeowner. He can consider those ideas or discard them. Personally, I really enjoy having a decent sized space with a good sized sink and the ability to print and process up to 40". but I suppose some people would prefer running paper across the house in black boxes or something.

While I'm thrilled that "many" have been able to do darkrooms without plumbing, my point was it's not impossible to do one with plumbing and could be surprisingly affordable, as the OP only mentioned "cost" as an issue. Sorry I caused you consternation, but I was replying to the OP, not to you, and I apologize for, umm, participating in a discussion? If there's a blocking feature on Photrio, it may be a good idea to block me and save yourself future frustration.

I have a carpet in my dry darkroom and it has never been a dust problem.

mshchem · Jun 29, 2022

Re: real estate costs. In Iowa you could buy a 3 bedroom home, 15 year mortgage for less than rent on a efficiency apartment in places like San Francisco, Vancouver, anywhere on the east coast of the US with access to the water.

I have a 2001, 4 bedroom house, 3 1/2 bath, 2 large utility rooms that contain most of my darkroom and chemistry storage, film fridge too.
I'm definitely not someone who is considered "rich". I am reasonably frugal, have obtained most all of my darkroom stuff 2nd hand, 40 years of accumulation.
Iowa has 4 definite seasons, 38°C days, occasionally, minus 30° days, anywhere from a foot to 5 feet of snow. The entire state, every bit of agricultural land is covered with corn or soybeans. Driving across the state will see nothing but crops for 5-6 hours.

Still plenty of space to build, totally different than the cities of the world. My wife and I spent a week in London England a few years ago. We met with some friends. They have a nice home in the city, both have good jobs. The value of their home has escalated so much that selling would incur a massive tax bite..
In the US you have a one time no capital gains tax on the sale of your home.

Point I'm not very good at making, is some of us it's not a big deal to have a dedicated space, and others are hemmed by high costs.

My wife wants to sell everything and move to Cape Cod, that would mean trading my pretty damn nice house for a 2 bedroom condo. That's not going to happen.

Pieter12 · Jun 29, 2022

mshchem said:
In Iowa you could buy a 3 bedroom home

Yeah, but you have to want to live in Iowa.

mshchem · Jun 29, 2022

Pieter12 said:
Yeah, but you have to want to live in Iowa.

Field of Dreams, I'm happy. Just got back from a quick stop at church, then grocery store, all on a nice paved trail, white pines, hardwoods. No ocean, a little creek I saw a Indigo bunting on the trail yesterday
Peace

VinceInMT · Jun 29, 2022

mshchem said:
In the US you have a one time no capital gains tax on the sale of your home.

Well, no. In order to qualify for the exclusion, you have to have lived in your house for 2 of the last 5 years but it doesn’t have to be consecutive days. The amount you can exclude is $500K for a married couple or $250K if single. It’s not just a one-time thing. You could buy and sell every two years and still claim the exclusion. I refer you to the IRS Section 121 Exclusion. (I had to refer to my wife, sitting across the table from me, who is a CPA, specializing in tax.)

mshchem said:
Point I'm not very good at making, is some of us it's not a big deal to have a dedicated space, and others are hemmed by high costs.

Yes, the high costs per square foot in some markets really can put the squeeze on some buyers. For example, a couple VERY close to me is getting ready to buy their first how in the Silicon Valley area. They are looking in the $2 - 2.5 million range and this would yield a single level home, 3 BR, 2 BA, about 1,600 SF. My mind boggles EXCEPT that they both work in tech and make very serious money.

logan2z · Jun 29, 2022

Pieter12 said:
Yeah, but you have to want to live in Iowa.

I've lived in the San Francisco Bay area for over 20 years. Iowa is sounding pretty good right now.

mshchem · Jun 29, 2022

logan2z said:
I've lived in the San Francisco Bay area for over 20 years. Iowa is sounding pretty good right now.

I would think it was 30 years ago, I was in San Francisco on business, my Mom insisted I walk climb the Filbert Steps, I love creatures of all kinds, I definitely remember the cats. I remember seeing a one room place seemed like it was $1500/month. SFO is about the greatest place I've been and I've been around. I would want to have several million in ready cash and not need to work. I retired just a bit before my 62nd birthday, not needed to work is my favorite thing.

Pieter12 · Jun 29, 2022

logan2z said:
I've lived in the San Francisco Bay area for over 20 years. Iowa is sounding pretty good right now.

If you are still working a job that requires your physical presence, the income may not be anywhere the same as the coasts. Also, some industries just aren't located there.

beemermark · Jun 29, 2022

McDiesel said:
I'm thinking of building an outdoor shed in the back yard, which is doable yet I keep thinking "really? a shed? how all these folks can afford a darkroom?". I realize that a darkroom could very well be a luxury for the privileged few, but perhaps I'm missing something? How is your darkroom set up?

I added a 12x20 shed to my back yard two years ago. 8x12 is a workshop while the rest is typical garden tool storage. My workshop is insulated, has AC & Heat, electric, internet, and hardwood floors. Not cheap (less than $20K) but it's what I wanted. I debated adding water but decided not too. However adding a water line would have been easier and far cheaper than running the electrical (ran 60 amp).

Frank53 said:
Were I live, nobody uses his garage for cars.

You're correct. My garage is filled with motorcycles -

mshchem · Jun 29, 2022

Pieter12 said:
If you are still working a job that requires your physical presence, the income may not be anywhere the same as the coasts. Also, some industries just aren't located there.

Iowa City IA, if you have talent, there's a job. I would not have a chance my skills are so antiquated. Iowa City is a hotbed of liberalism, multicultural very cool place. United Technologies has a place a couple miles from where I sit, and the Collins Avionics plants in Cedar Rapids, just to our north, have a constant need for software, EE, you name it. Integrated DNA Technologies is across the street from one of the UT/Raytheon plants all have been recruiting steady all along.

And then there's the agricultural biz. Unbelievable.

Maybe when I get more decrepit than I am now I will list all my photo junk, comes with nice 4 bedroom ranch

VinceInMT · Jun 30, 2022

Pieter12 said:
Yeah, but you have to want to live in Iowa.

All places have their pluses and minuses. Despite that, over 70% of Americans live near where they grew up so it’s not like most people evaluated their options and moved to a place that best suits their wants and needs but take what the randomness of birthplace dealt to them by default.

For myself, I am a Southern Californian, born there, but also a navy brat and moved around which gave me a taste of living in other places (Honolulu was my favorite.). After my own time in the military, where I lived for extended periods in New Jersey, New York (way upstate in Watertown), and Germany, I settled back in SoCal for 15 years before looking at the those pluses and minuses and used them as I made a decision as to where I wanted to spend the next phase of my life. My two selections were Spokane, WA and Billings, MT and landed a teaching job in Billings where I have been for 31 years. Yes, it has pluses and minuses but for what we where looking for it had more pluses and one of those pluses (to keep this on topic) was that I could buy a house, for cash, that was 3 times larger than the one I had in California and had a perfect place for a darkroom. I also went from a 90-minute, one-way, daily commute to 8 minutes each way. Now, 10 years retired, and my wife considering doing the same, we are, again, looking at those pluses and minuses.

While I haven’t lived in Iowa, I’ve been through the state numerous times, including last summer on an extended motorcycle trip I took from Montana to Maine and back. Yes, lots of corn and soybeans. Quite clean and very nice small towns.

BTW, should you ever find yourself near Iowa City, be sure to head south a bit to the town of Riverside. It’s the future birthplace of Captain James T. Kirk and the town has done a good job commemorating that future event.

M Carter · Jun 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I have a carpet in my dry darkroom and it has never been a dust problem.

Yeah, my comments were more regarding spills. Even if the carpet is crap, a spill may linger in the fibers and pad long enough for mold/mildew. I think your worst darkroom dust problems would be basements with open-joist ceilings; printing darkrooms are usually humid enough to keep static down and dust settled.

Sirius Glass · Jun 30, 2022

M Carter said:
Yeah, my comments were more regarding spills. Even if the carpet is crap, a spill may linger in the fibers and pad long enough for mold/mildew. I think your worst darkroom dust problems would be basements with open-joist ceilings; printing darkrooms are usually humid enough to keep static down and dust settled.

And that is exactly why I have kept it a dry darkroom. When I take wet prints to load into the print dryer, they are in a large tray that I wipe with a towel before the tray leaves the wet darkroom.

Pieter12 · Jun 30, 2022

If I had a carpeted room to use as a dedicated darkroom, I would rip out the carpet and put in some linoleum tiles. Easy to clean up, no spills to stain or get trapped in the fibers and you can wet mop to clean it, rather than vacuuming, which can raise dust.

Sirius Glass · Jun 30, 2022

Pieter12 said:
If I had a carpeted room to use as a dedicated darkroom, I would rip out the carpet and put in some linoleum tiles. Easy to clean up, no spills to stain or get trapped in the fibers and you can wet mop to clean it, rather than vacuuming, which can raise dust.

In condos and well as zoning regulations, all bedrooms in multi-dwelling units must be carpeted. For some it is not an option to replace carpeting with anything other than carpeting.

Pieter12 · Jun 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
In condos and well as zoning regulations, all bedrooms in multi-dwelling units must be carpeted. For some it is not an option to replace carpeting with anything other than carpeting.

I would think that might depend on your condo association rules. I have never heard of zoning regulations that require carpeting. Hardwood flooring is all the rage now, after all.

VinceInMT · Jun 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
In condos and well as zoning regulations, all bedrooms in multi-dwelling units must be carpeted. For some it is not an option to replace carpeting with anything other than carpeting.

I’d like to see a citation on the zoning requirement.

That said, when I was using an extra bedroom as a dry darkroom, it was carpeted and I laid down those plastic carpet runners on the wet side to catch spills.

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