D23 - After mixing

[pentaxuser]

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View attachment 358475

Anniversary Speed Graphic, 150 mm Componon, .EDU Ultra 400, D-23 replenished stock.

That an incredibly detailed pic, Donald, with very open shadows. In fact there are almost no shadows in a building that I had expected to be much shadier. Is this all from that one light which somehow has managed to light the whole room or has the replenished D23 contributed to such an openness, or are there other sources of light ?


Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

D-23 is an excellent choice for DIY compounding and an extremely flexible developer especially when considering its usage at higher dilutions with contrasty technical films (cms 20, hr-21, copex, etc).

I'm getting some Deja-Vu vibes going on here because the quality of this negative takes me back to four years ago when I was playing around with Pyrocat-HD. The scale of tones look visually compressed, soft, like Pyrocat developed film yet without the coloration and with a boatload of detail. I am now very excited to see how these frames print.

Using it at 1+1 in 35mm does indeed give that 'soft working' feel. Legendary stuff, that Metol.

N75, 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6
Kentmere 400, D-23 1+1 14'
V800 negative scan



Edit: D-19 is another interesting developer in the Kodak range, albeit a more complex formulation. Pretty much the exact opposite of D-23, D-19 produces extremely high contrast negatives... best suited for reversal processing!

 

[What About Bob]

It looks as if this is about 50 degrees Centigrade but a couple of degrees either side is fine. Jon Finch who has a good 10 minute video on this developer simply uses the phrase " around about 50C " so the couple of degrees either side is my interpretation of what "around about " might mean. Based on #10 it looks as if a much lower temp of about 32 C will work so may be the "round about" 50C has more leeway than I had assumed

Here's his video if it helps



pentaxuser

His metol was lighter in tone. The metol I bought was very lightly brown-tinted with maybe one or two small lumps that I had to bash. Nice to know that you don't need to use scales. Very simple.

I like John's videos. His video on matching your film to your developer is one I would like to try out. The settings on my TLR might be a little tricky on that test because there are no click-stops and the readings are a little older like "100th instead of 125th" and "25th instead of 30th" for the shutters. There is even a 1/5th instead of a 1/8th.

 

[What About Bob]

These qualities are why this simplest of all developers is still around after about a hundred years. Especially when used diluted, it's highly compensating (not quite as much as Pyrocat, but much more so than most other of its contemporaries), and with extended development and reduced agitation can get back most of the speed it loses compared to the standard D-76 while maintaining or even improving its compensating quality.

Even better, if you make up the replenisher and use it replenished (at stock strength, of course) it can be very cheap to use; the only extra chemical in the replenisher (DK-25R) is sodium metaborate, which can be made in process from laundry borax and lye drain opener (much more cheaply than buying metaborate from a supplier like DigitalTruth). John Finch has another video aimed specifically at how to use D-23 in replenishment. I've used it this way; it produces nice negatives and a liter of D-23 will last about 20+ rolls before you run out of the recommended amount of replenisher and need to discard all but 250 ml of the stock solution and top up with fresh stock and start a fresh batch of replenisher.

View attachment 358475

Anniversary Speed Graphic, 150 mm Componon, .EDU Ultra 400, D-23 replenished stock.

Wow! the details are everywhere in this image. Was the film overexposed a little or was this at box speed?

I'll have to look into the borax and lye. Some places you have to fill out a special form for that last part, for ordering online. Any particular brands of those chemicals? I know of the 20 mule team stuff for the borax.

 

[retina_restoration]

His metol was lighter in tone. The metol I bought was very lightly brown-tinted with maybe one or two small lumps that I had to bash. Nice to know that you don't need to use scales. Very simple.

If you were sold "brown tinted" Metol with hard lumps in it, then I suggest you find a better source for chemistry - "brown" Metol is old and partially deteriorated. Go to Artcraft Chemicals instead.

 

[What About Bob]

I concur with all of this. I now only use D-23 (when I do) as a one-shot developer but when I was still reusing it, I just replenished with fresh stock D-23 and never had an issue.

If you want to go really wild, try D-23 1+9 and add 0.5g/l of sodium hydroxide (lye) to it and semistand process with it for an hour - 2min initial agitation, one 10 second agitation at 31min, out at 60min.
You get razor sharp negs ... arguably too sharp - see the first example below ... but really nice for larger formats. Here are scans of prints made from 35mm and 9x12cm negatives respectively:

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230608-1-12-Tickets.jpg

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230616-1-91-Barking_Mad.jpg

Getting into Rodinal territory. That wood image is knife-sharp!

 

[chuckroast]

Getting into Rodinal territory. That wood image is knife-sharp!

Yeah, I love that one stalk of grass in the center that is just razor sharp. When you dilute D-23 that much, the metol has far less solvent effect. (As noted down thread, this likely isn't quite right. It's the significant reduction in sodium sulfite that halts the solvent effect. I am still trying to find an authoritative reference on this.) Hence, the sharpness you see, since it's not "chewing away" at the edges of the grain. This tends to really bring up grain, as the first image shows, so I'd avoid this for 35mm (unless you happen to like that look). But for larger formats - in this case 9x12cm - it works just fine.

With that little metol in solution, you need a lot of development time, hence my use of semistand for an hour of total time. The upside is that you get full shadow (ISO) speed for the filme.

You're also diluting the sodium sulfite when you do this, so you have to restore the alkalinity - hence the lye. (Kudos to a guy on the UK 5x4 site who turned me on to this trick.)

Just be careful when handling lye. Wear nitrile gloves, eye protection and some kind of labcoat or
apron. The stuff causes nasty skin burns but can be used quite safely in a darkroom - after all, it was routinely used as a drain opener for years. It does cause a release of heat when added to water so add slowly, though at these small quantities I've never had a problem ... then again, I am pretty meticulous around any chemistry.

The one thing I've never gotten around to trying is Divided D-23 where you take each component separately into two tanks/trays. This is often cited as sort of a super compensating scheme.

In any case, I find D-23 amazingly flexible and forgiving.

 

[What About Bob]

D-23 is an excellent choice for DIY compounding and an extremely flexible developer especially when considering its usage at higher dilutions with contrasty technical films (cms 20, hr-21, copex, etc).



Using it at 1+1 in 35mm does indeed give that 'soft working' feel. Legendary stuff, that Metol.

N75, 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6
Kentmere 400, D-23 1+1 14'
V800 negative scan

View attachment 358490 View attachment 358491

Edit: D-19 is another interesting developer in the Kodak range, albeit a more complex formulation. Pretty much the exact opposite of D-23, D-19 produces extremely high contrast negatives... best suited for reversal processing!

Delicate tone results with the flower and then a retro feel with the alley image. Very cool. D23 has that retro feel to it that I like.

I used D19 a few times back in the early 90s. Pretty stark stuff.

I noticed Kentmere in the description. I'm going to be transitioning for a little while to that film. Recently received some 100 speed versions of it.

 

[What About Bob]

If you were sold "brown tinted" Metol with hard lumps in it, then I suggest you find a better source for chemistry - "brown" Metol is old and partially deteriorated. Go to Artcraft Chemicals instead.

Thanks for the heads up. I got it at B&H.

I bookmarked Artcraft not too long ago. I will use them for now on.

 

[dokko]

When you dilute D-23 that much, the metol has far less solvent effect. Hence, the sharpness you see, since it's not "chewing away" at the edges of the grain. This tends to really bring up grain, as the first image shows, so I'd avoid this for 35mm (unless you happen to like that look). But for larger formats - in this case 9x12cm - it works just fine.

from all I know the Sodium Sulfite is responsible for the solvent effect at higher concentrations (100g/l).
if we dilute 1+9, then we'd have 10g/l, which pretty makes it a non-solvent formula, thus more sharpness and larger, edgier grain is to be expected.

 

[chuckroast]

from all I know the Sodium Sulfite is responsible for the solvent effect at higher concentrations (100g/l).
if we dilute 1+9, then we'd have 10g/l, which pretty makes it a non-solvent formula, thus more sharpness and larger, edgier grain is to be expected.

Yes, I think you must be right. I have it backwards (I think).

 

[What About Bob]

With the metol that I bought being on the old side; maybe it was a good thing that I went with the D76 time of 11 minutes and not the MDC time for 8.

 

[retina_restoration]

With the metol that I bought being on the old side; maybe it was a good thing that I went with the D76 time of 11 minutes and not the MDC time for 8.

If the D-23 produced a good negative, then the Metol is obviously still viable. But ideally, you don't want to rely on it for years in that condition.

 

[chuckroast]

I have used quite a bit of the D23 and D23 two bath. I've always been able to use it right away. One trick is, before putting adding the Metol, put in a pinch of sodium sulfite, then the Metol, then the rest of the sodium sulfite. I usually start with water at 100°F. After starring very well and dissolving everything, I add the remaining cold water to top it up to a liter, That helps bring the temperature down to processing range. That's the only drawback to using it immediately.

I'd be interested in hearing about your two bath discipline - how you mix the baths and the times. Thanks!

 

[What About Bob]

My flatbed scanner sometimes has issues with scan lines. I finished printing last night and came up with these images from the D23 negative:

Rolleicord TLR, Ilford FP4 plus at 100 ISO, D23 1:1 for 11 minutes at 68F/20C
Ilford Multigrade IV, pearl surface, 8X10 printed as 8X8, Lens height 16in, F:11, around 7.5 - 9 seconds, Liquidol for 2 minutes at around 70F/21.6C

1. Julia Child Center at Smith College. Partly sunny that day. 100th at F:11.5. - Did a slight dodge on the grass for 3 seconds.
2. Lady came right out in front of me on path. Quickly did a reading and made the shot. 1/25th at F:16
3. Repeat of the Christmas tree scene. 1 second at F:8

 

[retina_restoration]

I'd be interested in hearing about your two bath discipline - how you mix the baths and the times. Thanks!

Divided D-23 developer

That’s pretty much everything you need to know!

 

[Donald Qualls]

When I got to 40- or so 8x10 equivalents processed, I dumped half of the working developer, and refilled with fresh 1:1 stock.

And this is why you never had trouble. You were effectively just reusing the developer within the usual limits and keeping it about halfway through the reuse limits.

 

[chuckroast]

Divided D-23 developer

That’s pretty much everything you need to know!

Thanks!

What kind of subjects/shooting environments have you found best benefit from this?

 

[pentaxuser]

With the metol that I bought being on the old side; maybe it was a good thing that I went with the D76 time of 11 minutes and not the MDC time for 8.

From memory of comments on D23 in threads on this site I recall that light brown is considered OK. Maybe even John Finch mentions this although it's the case that John's Metol is white as I understand it should be when completely fresh. It's the old story or question:
At which point in the brown spectrum does it cease to have its full effect?

pentaxuser

 

[chuckroast]

And this is why you never had trouble. You were effectively just reusing the developer within the usual limits and keeping it about halfway through the reuse limits.

I more or less figured that at the time. These days, when I do use D-23, it's diluted well beyond 1:1, so I use it as a one-shot developer. I find that the stock keeps well in a brown glass bottle for many months, even if there is air in the bottle. In any case, I never cease to be amazed at just how versatile this simple brew is...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Was the film overexposed a little or was this at box speed?

I metered at box speed (true speed for Fomapan is widely given as EI 160-200) and placed the shadows on Zone III.

Is this all from that one light which somehow has managed to light the whole room or has the replenished D23 contributed to such an openness, or are there other sources of light ?

It's been fifteen years since this was exposed, but I recall there being a window out of view, no direct sun through the window but some sky lighting. D-23 is a speed losing developer, so I doubt it's just because of D-23. As I recall, this was soon after I started using reduced agitation (every third minute) and developing with time as if a 2 stop push, which seems to pull up the shadows about 2/3 stop compared to what you'd get from the same developer with normal 30 second or one minute agitation cycles.

 

[retina_restoration]

Thanks!

What kind of subjects/shooting environments have you found best benefit from this?

Scenes/conditions where the range of luminance values approaches or exceeds the ability of the film to retain it all. But this technique works beautifully for any scenario, flat or contrasty. The idea of the divided developer is that regardless of the luminance range/contrast, the developer will make it fit on the film's tonal scale.

 

[pentaxuser]

I metered at box speed (true speed for Fomapan is widely given as EI 160-200) and placed the shadows on Zone III.



It's been fifteen years since this was exposed, but I recall there being a window out of view, no direct sun through the window but some sky lighting. D-23 is a speed losing developer, so I doubt it's just because of D-23. As I recall, this was soon after I started using reduced agitation (every third minute) and developing with time as if a 2 stop push, which seems to pull up the shadows about 2/3 stop compared to what you'd get from the same developer with normal 30 second or one minute agitation cycles.

Thanks An interesting way to pull up shadows and useful with a developer that may be similar to Perceptol in terms of speed losing

pentaxuser