D-76 / Xtol developer: Advantages / Disadsvantages of using it as stock

[peter k.]

Was given a gift of nine bags of D-76, and usually develop D-76 and Xtol 1:1, With this gift, my curiosity got up about using D-76 or Xtol as a stock solution. One obvious disadvantage is, if you use it as a stock solution, you will run out of developer sooner. Looking forward to your input and replies. Thanks p.

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you use Xtol as stock solution, you have the option to use the stock as replenisher as well, and keep the stock strength goodness going almost forever.

With D-76, this is a little more complicated, because Kodak dropped D-76R replenisher years ago. The formula is published, however, and ingredients aren't hard to come by. You might also be able to make replenisher from the D-76 powder -- Ilford has published a method of mixing their ID-11 with only part of one bag to make replenisher; it's possible the same would work for D-76.

The main advantage, for me, of using stock Xtol with replenishment is I get the finest possible grain and still excellent sharpness and speed -- and never have to worry about the water quality (I mix the stock solution with deinoized water, and never have to dilute). My development doesn't change with the seasons, as can be the case if you use well water to dilute developer (pH of the water can change). The same is true of D-76.

Of course, with free D-76, you could just develop with the stock solution and add time as you use the capacity, and then discard it after something like 8-12 rolls per liter.

 

[Sirius Glass]

As Don said use XTOL as replenished. The tonality is better and a five liter packages last almost forever if one puts it in containers that keep out all air.

 

[pentaxuser]

Was given a gift of nine bags of D-76, and usually develop D-76 and Xtol 1:1, With this gift, my curiosity got up about using D-76 or Xtol as a stock solution. One obvious disadvantage is, if you use it as a stock solution, you will run out of developer sooner. Looking forward to your input and replies. Thanks p.

Others seem to have understood what you mean by stock solution. It may be a difference in our understanding I.e. yours and mine of what stock solution is but both developers require making into stock solution of 5L in Xtol's case.

Did you mean stock as a one-off and dump as opposed to replenishment and/or pouring it back each time and increasing development time? Used in a dilution of 1+1 5L of Xtol will develop 40 x 135 films in a 250 ml tank on a use once then dump basis. That's not bad even if you have to pay for it which isn't the case here

pentaxuser

 

[Helge]

Where I live 1:1 oneshot amounts to a little over half a dollar per roll. That’s pretty acceptable to me.
Remind me, are there advantages other than monetary, to the other dilution and replenishment methods?

 

[focus_on_infinity]

You won't necessarily use D76 any faster as stock solution, even without replenishment. And actually, I think it would be the opposite, because you're not using it as a single shot. The data sheet says you can develop 4 rolls/L of stock solution, with no change in development time. After that you can keep re-using by adding 15% more time for each roll over 4. I'll typically pitch it at 8 rolls just because, but I've found the 15% to be pretty accurate. The same is true with dilution, but I'm not all that likely to be developing that many rolls at once.

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j78.pdf

But either way, developer is cheap, and in OP's case, free.

 

[Wallendo]

D-76 stock will have a higher solvent concentration than 1+1 - Potentially less prominent grain. Development times are also shorter. You also don't have to worry about minimum amounts of developer - a potential issue with D-76 1+1 (although I ignore Kodak's recommendations there). Stock solution also increases that chance that you will use up developer before it goes bad.
An advantage of 1+1, besides that obvious benefit of devoting more rolls, include temperature control. When using 1+1, I check the temperature of the developer and then adjust the water temp so that the final result of the mixture is 68F.
The easy solution to your question is to mix up a bag of D-76 and develop sample rolls in stock solution and 1+1 and see if you personally notice any difference.

 

[peter k.]

Others seem to have understood what you mean by stock solution. It may be a difference in our understanding I.e. yours and mine of what stock solution is but both developers require making into stock solution of 5L in Xtol's case.

Yes we are referring to the solution after mixed, .. as stock solution, and not diluted, as one does when mixed 1:1

D-76 stock will have a higher solvent concentration than 1+1 - Potentially less prominent grain.

Ah .. this is what we were really asking, the advantages of using stock solution is potentially less grain.

The easy solution to your question is to mix up a bag of D-76 and develop sample rolls in stock solution and 1+1 and see if you personally notice any difference.

Ah yes, that's to simple..

 

[MattKing]

An advantage of 1+1, besides that obvious benefit of devoting more rolls, include temperature control. When using 1+1, I check the temperature of the developer and then adjust the water temp so that the final result of the mixture is 68F.

Or if you look at it another way, the advantage of developing in stock D-76 is that you don't need to adjust temperature. Just develop at room temperature, adjusting development time accordingly.
That is how I use replenished developer.
Sometimes, with some films, using fresh, un-replenished stock developer can result in short development times, sometimes inconveniently so.

 

[mklw1954]

As far as cost goes, 15 rolls of 135-36 or 120 film can be developed with one gallon of stock solution (4 rolls per liter). At $10 per bag to make 1 gallon of stock solution, that's $0.67 per roll. Unless you are developing a ton of rolls per year, the cost advantage of using 1:1 is minor. I use stock as I haven't seen any technical advantage over using stock.

 

[bluechromis]

I don't understand the comment that if one uses the D-76 developer stock they will use up developer faster used as a one shot. Anchell and Troop in "The Film Development Cookbook" say that it is a misnomer that one only needs enough developer to cover the reels. The say that Kodak said that one must use at at least 100 ml of developer in it's most undiluted form per roll of film or 80 sq. inches. But that is only to achieve minimally acceptable negatives. Much better results they say result from 250 ml. of developer per roll. With D-76 and Xtol the stock solution is most the undiluted form so one should use at least 250 ml. of stock per roll. But if one uses a 1+1 solution one needs twice that amount, 500 ml. per roll. So there is no saving of developer through dilution because as one dilutes one must also scale up the volume of developer used. Using the developer 1 + 1 will give slightly better film speed and sharpness. If using as a one shot I think a lot people feel that using D-76 and Xtol 1+1 gives the best tradeoff of fine grain versus sharpness and film speed. If fine grain is the most important consideration then that is a pretext to use them at stock strength.

 

[Helge]

Slightly off topic.
What exactly is a floating lid, how does it work and can you make it yourself custom for you container of choice?

I’m using a lot of marbles to get the liquid level up to the neck of the bottle, with the last bit of developer.

Decanting to a smaller bottle seems counterproductive as it would just oxygenize the developer when pouring.

Pressurized CO2 spray would be obvious to fill the top with, but who sells it?

 

[Deleted member 88956]

@Helge Lid that floats on top of liquid inside container. Essentially container must be straight open at top in order to insert it and later remove for thorough cleaning of container/lid. Typically they make these as top shelf cylindrical containers with spigot at bottom to fill a graduate. Top is covered with snap on lid (with a vent), but inside there is another that simply remains on top of liquid and keeps going down with liquid level.

Yes you can make one. Floating lid must be just free to move inside, but it also needs to have raised sides so it stays squarish to container sides as it floats/goes down.

Tank with floating lid

 

[NB23]

I use stock D76 for 35mm films and 1:1 for 120 films. This way the film capacity per gallon stays the same (16 films per D76package) and I am sure to always use at least 200ml of stock solution per film (for 120 film, 450ml of D76 diluted at 1:1 contains 225ml of stock solution, which is within Kodak’s recomendations) and 225ml of stock solution develops one 35mm film, or 900ml in a 4 roll stainless steel tank.

Please note that I DO NOT MAKE IT A SPORT to develop a maximal number of films with a mininal amount of developer. The money saving was done at the film stage (I buy bulk), and I fix 20 films per liter of 1:4 fixer. I also use up the stop bath all the way until it is exhausted which, surprisingly, takes a long time, around 40 films per liter. Those littke things.

 

[focus_on_infinity]

I’m using a lot of marbles to get the liquid level up to the neck of the bottle, with the last bit of developer.

Decanting to a smaller bottle seems counterproductive as it would just oxygenize the developer when pouring.

Pressurized CO2 spray would be obvious to fill the top with, but who sells it?

I have a couple of bottles of Bloxygen, but I haven't used it yet.

I find marbles to be a little annoying. A few are useful in color chemistry because then you can warm the chemistry in the bath, and use the marbles to mix it up to even out the temperature.

The VacuVin wine saver does it's job very well. I can get about an 80% vacuum using the hand pump, and the top will hold without leaking for a very long time. I recommend getting the brand name VacuVin stoppers - they grey ones - because they're softer and hold better. The cheap black copies don't hold as well, and don't hold in a 1L bottle at all.

But I have to say that overall, I find that for storage it's easier just to fill it to the brim, and I'm not doing the VacuVin thing at all right now except for a little experiment on the side. For working solutions, they won't be out long enough to spoil.

And I do believe we're only talking about developer here. Fixer and stop bath seem to last indefinitely without any special precautions, or at least as long as I've ever used them. And I mix HCA just prior to use.

I also use up the stop bath all the way until it is exhausted which, surprisingly, takes a long time, around 40 films per liter. Those littke things.

I've always wondered how far you could go with the stop bath. It takes a long time. I'll toss it when I get suspicious, but I'm not actually sure what color the indicator is supposed to turn to.

 

[NB23]

It gradually loses its yellow color and then becomes bluish. This takes a long time.

From bluish to deep purple it is quite quick afterwards.

I personally believe that as soon as you see a hint of blue it is good to be discarded.

I have a couple of bottles of Bloxygen, but I haven't used it yet.

I find marbles to be a little annoying. A few are useful in color chemistry because then you can warm the chemistry in the bath, and use the marbles to mix it up to even out the temperature.

The VacuVin wine saver does it's job very well. I can get about an 80% vacuum using the hand pump, and the top will hold without leaking for a very long time. I recommend getting the brand name VacuVin stoppers - they grey ones - because they're softer and hold better. The cheap black copies don't hold as well, and don't hold in a 1L bottle at all.

But I have to say that overall, I find that for storage it's easier just to fill it to the brim, and I'm not doing the VacuVin thing at all right now except for a little experiment on the side. For working solutions, they won't be out long enough to spoil.

And I do believe we're only talking about developer here. Fixer and stop bath seem to last indefinitely without any special precautions, or at least as long as I've ever used them. And I mix HCA just prior to use.



I've always wondered how far you could go with the stop bath. It takes a long time. I'll toss it when I get suspicious, but I'm not actually sure what color the indicator is supposed to turn to.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I purchased and used marbles to displace the air in bottles, but I found that as I used the chemicals the marbles made the bottles very heavy. I use vacuum type bags to push out the air and seal much more convenient.

 

[MattKing]

I've always wondered how far you could go with the stop bath. It takes a long time. I'll toss it when I get suspicious, but I'm not actually sure what color the indicator is supposed to turn to.

Acetic acid based stop bath will last a long time. Citric acid based stop bath provides an excellent environment for growing mold - you don't want to keep it a long time.
The indicator makes the stop bath colour go pale yellow, then clear, then quickly reddish and then purple - the transition happens quickly. It can be difficult to see initially under safelight.
The next time you are going to discard some developer and stop bath, mix them together and watch the colour appear.

 

[Bill Burk]

I should be able to explain this to a child. But I get it backwards or don’t know. What is it again?

D-76 stock: higher contrast for a given time (e.g., 17 minutes D-76 1:1 might be same contrast as 12 minutes D-76 stock). So choose to use D-76 stock when you want more contrast but want a reasonable developing time.

That much I know.

But for best speed. Best speed being minimum LogE to give density 0.1 above base+fog when developed to ASA parameters (which is nearly 0.62 contrast index). I would think D-76 stock would deliver that, while a slight shift in the speed point might occur in D-76 1:1 developed to the same parameters, I think the lesser speed would be D-76 1:1.

I haven’t tested for that but think that is so because ASA used to specify a formula nearly identical to D-76 stock when rating film speed.

As for the other two qualities: Sharpness and Graininess... which is which? And why? Do you get sharper with 1:1 because of the slight edge effects from weaker developer becoming locally exhausted between agitations? Less sharp in D-76 stock because fresh developer is always reaching the emulsion? For that reason is that why more developer per 80 square inches is better? And does byproduct bromide in solution slow down developing to a greater extent in D-76 1:1?

Do you get less prominent grain in D-76 1:1 because there is more time for the solvent to work on the edges of silver? Or the other way around the solvent is more active as it’s stronger in D-76 stock?

I am sure the answers are well-known, maybe even in Mees (a reference you can read online).

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

We'd have to add it's small format ISO400 film what makes total sense in D-76 stock.
And only when exposed at EI400-EI800. At EI200 Perceptol produces better image structure. Same with Microphen at 1600.