D-76 (1:1) Rotary time for 135-36 TMX

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Laostyle17

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The time for BOTH manual and rotary is 9 minutes at 68 degrees. Why does rotary time increase to 8 1/2 minutes from the 8 minute manual time at 70 degrees? Is it in the chemistry?

Second, manual 1:1 is 12 minutes at 68 degrees. Can I use the same ratio for rotary 1:1, if full strength times are the same? Information from Kodak.com didn't specify 1:1 time.

Thank you,

Alex
 

MartinP

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Note also that you might need to watch out for using less than the minimum volume of developer with rotary-processing at 1:1. That will depend on the size (length) of your tank of course, but the smaller Jobo drums don't use much liquid at all.

[There might be replies that are more useful if you correct the typo(s) in the original post. With the times as they are written, it doesn't make sense.]
 

pbromaghin

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Let me reword this for him. Laostyle17 and I were looking at the Kodak data sheet for D-76 and found this discrepancy with tmax 100. At 70 degrees the time for rotary is 8.5 minutes, but for standard manual agitation it is 8 minutes. At 68 degrees they are both the same at 9 minutes. We are not confusing the old and new emulsions. What is going on here?

The data sheet shows manual 1:1 agitation time at 68 degrees is 12 minutes. No time is specified for rotary. We are trying to come up with a rotary 1:1 time for 68 and 70 degrees, but the numbers are confusing.

I suppose we could just do it manually, but the rotary processor is just too cool not to use.
 

MartinP

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Yikes, then it really does sound weird. I suppose that you could assume the 20C/68F times are 'good' then use a graph, like the usual Ilford one, to correct for any temperature change. Half a minute either way won't make a lot of difference though, when the times are approaching ten minutes.
 

MattKing

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It may be that oxidation and other special effects of rotary agitation change with temperature.

And that the "minimum volume of stock" issues cause so many problems with D76 1+1and rotary agitation that Kodak elected not to provide a time.
 

Mick Fagan

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Working on the assumption you have reached a rotary developing technique with your chosen film and full strength developer that works well for you, you really need to do some empirical experimenting to adjust your developing times to suit, so that with your diluted developer you end up with negatives as close as possible to your original negative.

Kodak haven’t published 1:1 dilution times for rotary processing for undisclosed reasons. I do however suspect this is mainly because in many instances, 1:1 dilution in rotary processing could often mean not enough chemicals are generally present with the sometimes miniscule amount of fluid that will just cover the film when being rotary processed.

The miniscule amount of solution one can use for developing by employing a rotary technique, as opposed to an inversion technique, can throw up some interesting differences. One thing I have noticed about rotary technique is that there is a very slight end product difference, no matter what the dilution sameness is.

Meaning, if you use inversion processing with straight undiluted developer, then develop another roll of film exposed as near as possibly identical to the first roll of inversion processed film, but process it in a rotary situation with the same amount of chemistry, you will notice a slight difference.

I did this a million years ago, shortly after getting my first rotary processing machine (Jobo CPE2) around 1986. Basically, I used 500ml of undiluted solution for inversion processing in a Jobo 1520 tank. Then, using the larger Jobo 1540 tank I developed the same amount of film using 500ml of undiluted developer but rotary processed.

There was a difference in the negatives, even looking on the light box with a naked eye it was obvious if one looked. Not much of a difference, but it was there.

What this means is you will need to do some guessing and developing tests, to find what works for your particular film that has been exposed in your particular camera(s). I’m sorry to say that there isn’t any magic bullet.

With my own rotary processing, I almost exclusively use D76 1:1, and have done so since the late eighties. Apart from a few hundred sheets of 4x5” TMax I have hardly ever used Kodak films for personal use. What I can say, is that it is possible to get extremely good and very easy to print negatives, using rotary processing with D76 at 1:1 dilution at 20ºC through to 24ºC.

My general experience with rotary processing, compared to inversion processing, is that with all things being equal, rotary processing usually requires a slightly longer time. How much extra time is hard to define, pretty much every batch of film is developed in a different batch of developer and often at different temperatures and/or dilutions.

To greatly help with consistency, one aspect of my Jobo CPE2 that is invaluable and something I picked up when developing lots of E6 film, is this. I would mix up all of the chemicals and place everything in the tempering bath, then I would load four rolls of 135 film into the 1540 tank, then go to work. About two hours before coming home I would telephone the missus and ask her to go to the darkroom and switch the Jobo on. Upon arriving home I would switch the rotation on, to more evenly warm the films up. About 15 minutes later, I would start developing my films. To put it mildly, the consistency possible using one shot E6 developing and this warm-up regime was incredible. To this day, I still allow my chemistry and films to reside in the tempering bath for quite a time, therefore allowing temperature stability to be as good as possible.

I would suggest you could do worse than expose a whole roll (or rolls) of film to a standard test chart, which includes a grey scale as well as colour patches. Then clip develop small sections of film in your rotary processing system using diluted developer. Start by doing a clip test at your standard inversion time, then subsequent clips at increasingly longer times. You should find a time that is workable for your system in a very short and relatively inexpensive manner using either this method, or something similar.

A clip test, is where you clip a small section of film from the roll and develop that on its own. I generally clip about a hand span length of film because it is easy to measure in total darkness. With this length of film and using 135 film I am guaranteed to get at least one full frame of film developed.
 

Bill Burk

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I think Mick Fagan made some excellent points...

I created a family of curves at different development times for 35mm TMAX 100 in D-76. I used a small tank and processed by hand.

In my graphs you can see 8 minutes is well below the "ASA Triangle" aim for "Normal" processing.

Knowing how to measure contrast, even if you don't get detailed graphs like these, could help you visualize "how much" a little change in developing time matters.

In any case, I'd avoid any time less than 8 minutes when developing TMAX 100 in D-76 1:1 and I would lean more towards 13 minutes

tmxfamily.jpg


I work for Kodak, but not in film. The opinion and position I take is my own and not necessarily that of EKC.
 

pbromaghin

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WOW! Great posts! Many thanks to all of you.

My Jobo tank is one of the older style, bigger diameter ones, with reels made for the narrower tank, so there is about an inch of space between the reel and the tank wall. We decided to use 1500ml 1:1 for 5 reels. The chemicals will be 68 f. Based on Kodak's recommended 10% adjustment for crowding and Mick's and Bill's posts, we will process for 14:15 + pouring time. We also decided to add a 1-quart steel tank with 3 reels to do manually for 13:00.

This is my first time with d-76 after a few years of using Tmax developer and I'm surprised at how different it is.
 

Bill Burk

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Laostyle17 and pbromaghin,

There are many variables in film processing. That's why manufacturers call the published times "starting points".

I know that I consistently require "longer" times than recommended.

A possible explanation of my longer times: I use a 16 ounce, 2 reel tank. Since the recommended stock solution per roll of 35mm film is 8 ounces, you can see that when I mix 8 ounces stock plus 8 ounces of water to mix D-76 to 1:1 for this tank, I use exactly half the recommended stock solution.

You are taking a step in the right direction when you decided to use a quart tank with three reels (though a quart tank with two reels is the recommended stock solution per roll).
 

pbromaghin

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Thank you all for your help. We processed 8 rolls and they came out pretty nice:

AlyssaTMAX007.jpg
 
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