D-23 vs Pyro

DonW · Oct 15, 2021

This is NOT meant to be a face off between D-23 and Pyro. Any form of Pyro.

I have used Pyro-Cat since it first came out for 95% of my film developing. I love it. Plain and simple. It prints well and scans well.

However, several photographer I follow on Instagram and I enjoy their photography are using D-23.

For those with experience with BOTH developers what do you see as the major difference between the two.

It's not that one is better in all instances, but in general use for formats from 35mm to LF I'm interested in your feedback.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 15, 2021

I use Pyrocat-HD and D23. Hard pressed to see any difference. But ... Films like Pan F look better in D23 1+3 looks better in my opinion.

Alan9940 · Oct 15, 2021

Like Andrew, I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference other than the obvious stain of Pyrocat. I do enjoy Pyrocat for its ability to control highlights in a film that builds contrast quickly; like Fomapan 100, for example.

DonW · Oct 16, 2021

Thanks!

pentaxuser · Oct 16, 2021

michael_r said:
A nice thing about D-23 is how simple the formula is. Two ingredients + water, and it can do anything any other general purpose developer can do.

You can even use a replenishment system with it as demonstrated by John Finch of Pictorial Planet fame.

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 16, 2021

michael_r said:
one can tilt a solvent developer such as D-23 a little more toward sharpness, or at least acutance, by diluting it (1+1, 1+3 for example).

pentaxuser said:
You can even use a replenishment system with it as demonstrated by John Finch of Pictorial Planet fame.

And there is Divided D-23 which is a two bath developer.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 17, 2021

D23 1+3 is really quite lovely, with a bit more aquetance.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 17, 2021

For divided development, Pyrocat-HD gives exceptional results, when big contractions are wanted.

pentaxuser · Oct 17, 2021

michael_r said:
Yes. At one time D-23 was popular with some labs.

On checking the supply situation however the one problem that exists in the U.K. is that a supply of the extra ingredient for replenishment, namely sodium metaborate is now down to one stockist that I can find and the price is pretty high.

The other stockist who imports from Photographer's Formulary in the U.S has a notice that his Online shop is closed until mid November. Sodium metaborate is clearly not easy stuff to source from within the U.K.

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 17, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Sodium metaborate is clearly not easy stuff to source from within the U.K.

It is very easy to synthesize Sodium Metaborate from Borax and Sodium Hydroxide yourself. @Nikola Dulgiarov posted the recipe recently.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 17, 2021

I guess 1:10 dilution of D-23 spiked with 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per liter of working solution will give high acutance and crisp grain while being very economical.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 17, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I guess 1:10 dilution of D-23 spiked with 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per liter of working solution will give high acutance and crisp grain while being very economical.

Maybe I should give that a go with Pan F....

pentaxuser · Oct 17, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I guess 1:10 dilution of D-23 spiked with 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per liter of working solution will give high acutance and crisp grain while being very economical.

What is it that as little as 0.5g of Sodium Hydroxide per litre does that allows such a large dilution of 1:10 to work and does crisp grain mean much larger grain than would be true of 1+3? It is certainly more economical and makes D23 an incredibly cheap developer

Thanks

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Oct 17, 2021

Thanks Michael. I suppose that what I was a little doubtful of is the cost of the trade-off in terms of quality at 1+10.

Has anyone tried it and if so what does, say, a 8x10 print look like from such a negative developed in this way. If there was little effect on print quality then wouldn't everyone be doing it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 18, 2021

Apparently there were such acutance developers in the market as per Jerry Koch's post. One of them was Ethol Blue, which according to Jerry, "was on the market for about a decade." So there must have been quite a few users for such caustic Metol developers. @pentaxuser your question in post #18 is probably best answered by those who have used a developer like Ethol Blue in the past or by yourself.

FWIW I have used D-76 1:10 dilution spiked with 0.35g/l of Sodium Hydroxide in 35mm. And somebody on my suggestion tried it on 120 format TMax 100 and their scans looked good to me.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 18, 2021

More than novelty, the fact that a simple developer like D-23 can render itself to a range of uses for the discerning film photographer is quite impressive.

pentaxuser · Oct 18, 2021

Thanks, michael and Raghu for the replies. It might be worth an experiment

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 4, 2021

Shot a roll of Pan F at EI 25 and developed it in D-23 1+10 for a total working solution of 500ml, with the addition of 0.2g of Sodium Hydroxide. Total development time was 18 minutes at 20C. Agitation was three seconds every two minutes. Here is an example from the roll. These shots were all shot with my Rolleicord, handheld. The increase in acutance is impressive. Thank you Raghu, for the tip!

RalphLambrecht · Nov 4, 2021

pentaxuser said:
On checking the supply situation however the one problem that exists in the U.K. is that a supply of the extra ingredient for replenishment, namely sodium metaborate is now down to one stockist that I can find and the price is pretty high.

The other stockist who imports from Photographer's Formulary in the U.S has a notice that his Online shop is closed until mid November. Sodium metaborate is clearly not easy stuff to source from within the U.K.

pentaxuser

Maybe I'm wrong this but it was my understanding that metaborate was an optional ingredient.

pentaxuser · Nov 4, 2021

RalphLambrecht said:
Maybe I'm wrong this but it was my understanding that metaborate was an optional ingredient.

From what I have seen, Ralph. It is not required for D23 but is for replenished D23. If in fact you can successfully replenish D23 with stock D23 then that would be great as it keeps things much simpler more and avoids the cost and supply problem of sodium metaborate

Has anyone tried replenishing D23 with stock D23 with success?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 4, 2021

@Andrew O'Neill: I'm glad you gave D-23 1:10 + Hydroxide a try. I should also try it one of these days but I've tried the same trick with D-76 and was happy with the results I got.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 5, 2021

pentaxuser said:
From what I have seen, Ralph. It is not required for D23 but is for replenished D23. If in fact you can successfully replenish D23 with stock D23 then that would be great as it keeps things much simpler more and avoids the cost and supply problem of sodium metaborate

Has anyone tried replenishing D23 with stock D23 with success?

As you're probably aware, D-23 is a Metol based developer. When you reuse the developer, it accumulates bromide, a byproduct of development, which inhibits the activity of Metol. Replenishing D23 with stock D23 is not going to help you in countering this unless you use large amounts which makes replenishment non-economical. Therefore, Metaborate is used in D-23 replenisher to increase pH of used D-23 and thereby bring its activity back to the original level. Now, XTol doesn't have this problem because it is uses Phenidone which is not so sensitive to Bromide accumulation.

As I have written previously, it is very easy to make Metaborate from Borax and Sodium Hydroxide, two commonly available chemicals. If you want to take replenished D-23 route, just make some Metaborate and use it.

pentaxuser · Nov 5, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
As you're probably aware, D-23 is a Metol based developer. When you reuse the developer, it accumulates bromide, a byproduct of development, which inhibits the activity of Metol. Replenishing D23 with stock D23 is not going to help you in countering this unless you use large amounts which makes replenishment non-economical. Therefore, Metaborate is used in D-23 replenisher to increase pH of used D-23 and thereby bring its activity back to the original level. Now, XTol doesn't have this problem because it is uses Phenidone which is not so sensitive to Bromide accumulation.

As I have written previously, it is very easy to make Metaborate from Borax and Sodium Hydroxide, two commonly available chemicals. If you want to take replenished D-23 route, just make some Metaborate and use it.

Thanks for that. It is as I thought and stated to Ralph. My reasoning was that if it was that easy just to use D23 to replenish D23 then the use of metaborate would not be mentioned in the video I had seen on the subject by John Finch of Pictorial Planet. I have seen a lot of his videos and my conclusion is that he is very reliable. However it is good to see the scientific explanation

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 5, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I guess 1:10 dilution of D-23 spiked with 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per liter of working solution will give high acutance and crisp grain while being very economical.

I developed two short strips of Orwo UN54 with 1:10 dilution of D-23 spiked with 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per liter of working solution. I used 600ml of working solution in my Patterson two reel tank. 20 minutes @20C, continuous agitation for first minute and then 10 seconds at 2, 4, 8 and 16 minutes mark. Negatives look good to my eyes.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 5, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I developed two short strips of Orwo UN54 with 1:10 dilution of D-23 spiked with 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per liter of working solution. I used 600ml of working solution in my Patterson two reel tank. 20 minutes @20C, continuous agitation for first minute and then 10 seconds at 2, 4, 8 and 16 minutes mark. Negatives look good to my eyes.

I'm quite pleased with this combination. Pan F is wonderful in this on bright, sunny days it seems. Once again, thanks for the tip.

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