D-23 and Stop Bath

[MattKing]

FWIW, I think the papparazzi and White House Press Corp are the only "hordes of photographers" I've ever seen

You are probably not into bird photography then.

{internet image, but I've seen similar in my area}
Augustus and I differ on the question of how much to fill a tank. "Normal" inversion agitation - for me - requires there be sufficient air in the tank to permit the fluid to "tumble" and gurgle through the film.
I would approach the issue differently if I was using a reduced agitation regime.

 

[pentaxuser]

If you're doing continuous rotary processing, you don't actually need to cover the reels. With the tank in a horizontal position, you only need to fill up to the center column or thereabouts.

Yes I have never tried to fill a tank when using rotary processing but have only used the Jobo recommended quantity of liquid which is 140 ml for a 135 film

If you fill to the top which is 240/50 ml then turn on its side wouldn't a lot of of the developer slosh around the red rubber cap and thus do nothing as it is permanently outside the actual tank itself?


pentaxuser

 

[JWMster]

Matt: Yeah...that's not my idea of fun.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

You are probably not into bird photography then.
Augustus and I differ on the question of how much to fill a tank. "Normal" inversion agitation - for me - requires there be sufficient air in the tank to permit the fluid to "tumble" and gurgle through the film.
I would approach the issue differently if I was using a reduced agitation regime.

If you invert and rotate the tank, you get all the dispersal of by-products you need. I leave a small amount of "air space" at the top of my Paterson tanks, about an inch. The idea is to prevent excessive movement. I can hear the fluid gurgling.

 

[PicklesFrog]

Sorry I am stíll puzzling over your quote above: Is 9 mins the development time you use? If so how much of that time does the agitation last? When I mentioned 14 mins I just plucked that figure out of the air for the sake of trying to find out what "more than half straight agitation "was

Do you gently invert and tilt the tank once at each chosen interval and if so what time intervals do you use ie. once every 30 seconds, once every minute or some other interval

Thanks

pentaxuser

I do 14 minutes total. 9 minutes straight then agitate 10 seconds very minute. agitation is simply inverting my tank but as im inverting it, i twist it slightly.

 

[koraks]

If you fill to the top which is 240/50 ml then turn on its side wouldn't a lot of of the developer slosh around the red rubber cap and thus do nothing as it is permanently outside the actual tank itself?

Well, a lot of the developer will still be in the tank, but you're right that a lot will be sloshing around the cap as well. The weight of the fluid puts additional strain on the seal and especially with an older cap that may not fit as tightly as a brand new one, this may make it dislodge during processing, spilling developer all over the place. It's not ideal.

 

[JWMster]

I believe at the end of the day, we're describing the circumstance that Constant Agitation (Rotary) vs. Hand Inversion (and often "stand"/"semi stand"/intermittent) typically involve different suitable fill levels for reliable results. And it's the latter that counts most. We're not generally referencing in this thread (as we do in so many) the minimum developer per film suggestions from Kodak and Ilford's documentation and even discussion by type of inversion. But they're there.

Excess is excess but the impact is on cost and waste and not necessarily on quality.... unless for some reason fresh developer isn't flowing upon inversion / rotation. But I think the amount of space in a tank needed to mix the developer so that it moves from one place to another within the tank is easy to over-estimate. Fluid dynamics is beyond me.

For my own process where I'm generally very happy with the way things are working, I have no doubt I can make a modest effort to refine my fill levels down slightly. Thanks to everyone for this discussion.... I think we often find there's less precision in our language than our process, and it's a tough test to make the former match the latter.

 

[lamerko]

To be honest, I stopped using a stop bath a long time ago. True, I usually use an acid fix, but I actually use a water "stop" bath, mostly to avoid contaminating the fix. I have never seen any problems. I would use a stop bath if using super intensive developer and correspondingly very short times (for example when trying to suppress fog on old negatives). But generally I don't cause myself any problems
There's a huge pinned thread that I never got around to reading through - maybe it raises more questions than it answers...

 

[Castrillo]

... What does happen is if you use a fairly strong stop bath after a high-sulfite developer like D23, is that sulfur dioxide will be formed. At a low pH (<4.0 IIRC), sulfite will break down into sulfur dioxide....

Is it possible that you are confusing Sodium thiosulfate with Sodium sulfite?

Sodium sulfite (Na2 S O3) protects hypo (Na2 S2 O3) against acids and prevents sulfur formation.

 

[pentaxuser]

I do 14 minutes total. 9 minutes straight then agitate 10 seconds very minute. agitation is simply inverting my tank but as im inverting it, i twist it slightly.

So the first "9 mins straight" consists of what sort of agitation? It is the word straight that has me puzzled. Is this one inversion only per minute for 9 mins then the normal Iford agitation of 10 secs per minute thereafter until 14 mins

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

Is it possible that you are confusing Sodium thiosulfate with Sodium sulfite?

No. Please see this diagram:

Sodium sulfite (Na2 S O3) protects hypo (Na2 S2 O3) against acids and prevents sulfur formation.

Indeed. And you now perhaps understand also why acid fixers tend to be buffered at pH4 or a little higher.
Please note also there is a difference between:
1: Breakdown of thiosulfate in, among others, elemental/solid sulfur, a.k.a. 'sulfuring out', visible as a white to very pale yellow precipitate in a bottle of fixer and/or caked against the walls of the bottle
2: Breakdown of sulfite into sulfur dioxide, in gaseous form, which is evidenced by a pungent/stingy smell.

We're talking about #2 here.

 

[PicklesFrog]

So the first "9 mins straight" consists of what sort of agitation? It is the word straight that has me puzzled. Is this one inversion only per minute for 9 mins then the normal Iford agitation of 10 secs per minute thereafter until 14 mins

Thanks

pentaxuser

i just continuously invert and twist, usually 3-5 seconds per inversion (as in i take my tank, go around slowly for those 3-5 seconds before upright) and just do that for 9 mins then 10 seconds per minute until my times up. I use the same stock (kentmere 400) and d76 (and now d23) and they come out good enough for me.

 

[fophem]

Interesting, it's really different from the standard kodak or ilford inversion style. If it works for you that's great.
For D231+1 at 20°C and HP5 rated at 320 I do 12' with 10 inversions at the beginning then 4 every minutes. ( for standard "N" densities)

 

[markbau]

To be honest, I stopped using a stop bath a long time ago. True, I usually use an acid fix, but I actually use a water "stop" bath, mostly to avoid contaminating the fix. I have never seen any problems. I would use a stop bath if using super intensive developer and correspondingly very short times (for example when trying to suppress fog on old negatives). But generally I don't cause myself any problems
There's a huge pinned thread that I never got around to reading through - maybe it raises more questions than it answers...

I'm with you lamerko, I've been using water after film development for years. It started when I was messing around with PMK, I then dropped acid stop baths for all film, regardless of the developer. An interesting aside. A few years ago I got given some Berrger film. In the instructions it said after dumping the developer, pour in water and let it stand for a given amount of time. The instructions said something about letting the shadow areas develop a bit more. Which of course is what happens during stand development. I've never seen that on any other film developing instructions.

 

[pentaxuser]

i just continuously invert and twist, usually 3-5 seconds per inversion (as in i take my tank, go around slowly for those 3-5 seconds before upright) and just do that for 9 mins then 10 seconds per minute until my times up. I use the same stock (kentmere 400) and d76 (and now d23) and they come out good enough for me.

Thanks now I understand. Just out of curiosity what is the reason you do 9 mins at one type of agitation then switch for 5 mins to the Ilford agitation?

pentaxuser

 

[PicklesFrog]

Thanks now I understand. Just out of curiosity what is the reason you do 9 mins at one type of agitation then switch for 5 mins to the Ilford agitation?

pentaxuser

I'm in a darkroom class at my university and one time i was talking to my professor and forgot to stop inversions. My timer was at 9 minutes by the time i noticed.
Negatives came out really good (for me) and printed some and it was well in tonality even without contrast filters and with filters it shined really well.

A silly mistake turned into my developing ritual now. Been doing it for about 4 months now and all my negatives on Kentmere 400 films.

 

[pentaxuser]

Picklesfrog, that's great if you can remember to do the same agitation for the same proportion of time for other films with different development times but if simplicity with quality is your aim then sticking to the Ilford agitation routine may be easier. I'd be surprised if the negatives will not be as good

pentaxuser

 

[PicklesFrog]

Picklesfrog, that's great if you can remember to do the same agitation for the same proportion of time for other films with different development times but if simplicity with quality is your aim then sticking to the Ilford agitation routine may be easier. I'd be surprised if the negatives will not be as good

pentaxuser

yeah, i mainly stick with kentmere 400 in general but i do a normal 10 seconds per minute inversion for 4x5 delta 100.