Cynicism in Continuing to Invest in Medium Format

[moto-uno]

^ +1 Peter

 

[mahogcam]

OP is extremely interesting. There may be a gap in the future - when most mechanical film cameras (ie with moving mechanisms) have become unserviceable, but before digital technology has achieved the same level of tonality as film. This gap may well be a dark and desperate time for photography, with few products available (old or new) to achieve good tonality. I am guessing wildly, but this gap may occur somewhere about 200 years in the future. Once we go through 300-400 years into the future, then I'm confident that the tonality of digital will effortlessly equal a beautifully exposed and processed sheet of 8x10 FP4.

My mahogany cameras have all lasted about 120 years, with the wood still being strong and serviceable. The wood on one is so perfect, I'm very confident it will last another 300 years. It will just need a working lens, hopefully with a shutter (although that isn't essential). Material for making bellows will exist for many centuries into the future. If you look at furniture in some old stately homes in the UK, this stuff is sometimes 400 years old.

So I feel the issue is not particularly with MF, but about how long mechanical cameras with mechanisms can be kept running. If a distant-future owner of one of my RBs finds that a spring has broken in the mechanism, will they be bothered to have one made? Maybe there will be huge wear on a metal-to-metal surface - then what?

For me, film offers an amazing tonality that digital cannot begin to match. When digital surpasses that tonality (not in my lifetime I think - I'm 53) I would no longer put huge effort into maintaining mechanical cameras. Once donor machines had been cannibalized, that would be where I stop.

I intend to build up my stock of RB gear over the next 1-2 years, sufficient for my lifetime. If 120 film becomes completely unavailable, then so be it - that's beyond my control. Back to sheet film, and making my own plates if necessary.

 

[Pioneer]

If you are staying abreast of the continuing advancements in the 3D Printing world I actually think that we will be able to create, or buy from someone else, computer templates for the wear parts in most cameras and shutters and easily replace them. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a great business opportunity for a savvy repair tech who can 3D print the parts needed for a repair of almost any part in a mechanical camera.

However, if you are fond of cameras dependent on electronic parts like circuit boards, etc., I am not too sure the future holds much promise.

I do agree with the observations around our current wooden large format cameras. Most everything for those cameras can be repaired or replaced in some way. The weak link remains the shutter parts but those could easily be repaired with 3D printed parts as well. Of course, a large format camera is not commonly used in the same manner as their smaller medium format siblings so the shutters will likely last far longer.

 

[faberryman]

I think the availability of cameras will outlast the availability of film.

 

[removed account4]

i'm still trying to figure out how rollei "is dead"
this banner ad was there as i was posting this message

 

[Sirius Glass]

I think the availability of cameras will outlast the availability of film.

I agree.

 

[paul ron]

I'm counting on the Russians and Chinese to make fim when everyone else drops out.

otherwise film will become a diy or big cottage industry.

 

[faberryman]

Something about chickens and hatching comes to mind.

 

[removed account4]

I'm counting on the Russians and Chinese to make fim when everyone else drops out.

otherwise film will become a diy or big cottage industry.

i don't think it will be a big cottage industry
i think most people will think it is too much hassle shooting
ortho film or plates or wet plate &c and just keep doing what they have
been doing on the side all along. i also think there will be a lot of people
shooting expired paper and film and complaining about the good old days .

 

[Sirius Glass]

+1

 

[Kodachromeguy]

i don't think it will be a big cottage industry
i think most people will think it is too much hassle shooting
ortho film or plates or wet plate &c and just keep doing what they have
been doing on the side all along. i also think there will be a lot of people
shooting expired paper and film and complaining about the good old days .

I disagree for several reasons. 1. Expired film and paper will eventually run out or become so old that they do not perform properly. 2. There will continue to be a small demand for real film, not just from us old geezers but new users who are learning to enjoy the benefits of chemical-based imaging. Consider, small might be a tiny proportion of a billion+ "middle class" consumers with some disposable funds to indulge in a hobby, but that could be a lot of people around the world. 3. Even some digital users are shifting or at least experimenting with film. Sure, the "photographers" on Dpreview are thrilled they can take 3000 photos on their weekend in Paris, but some real photographers still enjoy a more studied and careful approach. In summary, I am not as pessimistic that film and paper will disappear.

 

[AgX]

i'm still trying to figure out how rollei "is dead"
this banner ad was there as i was posting this message
View attachment 182691

That firm DHW is dead and physically liquidated. That irritating banner is run by a US Rollei importer.
The same time even the obsolete original DHW website is still on.

The current manufacturer is called DW, same address, new CEO. They had a low profile for long, but now a brand new website:
https://www.dw-photo.eu/index.html

They are making the Hy6 and the respective lenses. It seems at the moment they are only using old stock they got out of the insolvency of their predecessor. The question remains what did the do in the last two years and what concept they will apply, different to the failed one of their predecessor.

 

[removed account4]

That firm DHW is dead and physically liquidated. That irritating banner is run by a US Rollei importer.
The same time even the obsolete original DHW website is still on.

The current manufacturer is called DW, same address, new CEO, and prefers a low profile...

thanks for the low-down !
i have been to the linked-to website
and was under the impression that seeing they
were paying sean $$$ for advertising cameras and lenses that
cost as much as a car, that they were still around... good to know not everything is what it seems !

 

[removed account4]

I disagree for several reasons. 1. Expired film and paper will eventually run out or become so old that they do not perform properly. 2. There will continue to be a small demand for real film, not just from us old geezers but new users who are learning to enjoy the benefits of chemical-based imaging. Consider, small might be a tiny proportion of a billion+ "middle class" consumers with some disposable funds to indulge in a hobby, but that could be a lot of people around the world. 3. Even some digital users are shifting or at least experimenting with film. Sure, the "photographers" on Dpreview are thrilled they can take 3000 photos on their weekend in Paris, but some real photographers still enjoy a more studied and careful approach. In summary, I am not as pessimistic that film and paper will disappear.

maybe
i don't think in the years down the road anyone will want to spend 25$/roll of film, and make your own will
get tired quick, its not as EZ as rolling one's own cigarette with loose tabac. it takes effort and skill
something which a lot of people don't want to deal with. not that someone who is a weekend warrior
can't learn the best ways to expose 19th century materials but it can be a frustrating learning curve.

... and in regards to " dp preview photographers " vs " real photographers "
there is no difference. it is amazing that horse is still around to beat.

 

[paul ron]

maybe
i don't think in the years down the road anyone will want to spend 25$/roll of film, and make your own will
get tired quick, its not as EZ as rolling one's own cigarette with loose tabac. it takes effort and skill
something which a lot of people don't want to deal with. not that someone who is a weekend warrior
can't learn the best ways to expose 19th century materials but it can be a frustrating learning curve.

... and in regards to " dp preview photographers " vs " real photographers "
there is no difference. it is amazing that horse is still around to beat.

Im sure once upon a time artists oil paints were very cheap. But as it became a shrinking market, prices of artists oils, canvas and good artist brushes sky rocketed. Same is happening with film as demand dwindles.

So will film ever die? I doubt it but it will certainly get expensive as with all hobby related materials. I don't mind paying for film if my master piece is going to fetch a decent price in a gallery. Even if its just for my personal use, Im enjoying the pleasures of having made it myself.

Money is worthless... its what you can convert it to that has value. I convert my money to pleasure.

.

 

[JWMster]

+5 to Paul Ron's comment and similar. Golf, fishing, hunting, skiing... any hobby or sport can be far more expensive that shooting and developing a roll of 120 or 35mm a week. And it is far cheaper than the tech cost of continuing with digital as a main machine/format in my opinion. Do painters really complain about the cost of paper for water colors... which is waaaaaaaaaaay high, or the cost of canvas? Cost of photo paper ain't cheap either btw. Availability comes at a price and the journeyman producing film, developing chems, and papers are all worth their wages. If we stick with this avocation, there's a cost. Travel to exotic locales (for those who do it without an expense account) probably dwarfs all the rest.

 

[Early Riser]

The questions each of us has to ask ourselves when it comes to gear is what will I require in the future? What is the long term viability of the camera systems I am already invested in?

I rely on my equipment for my living. I have always had the philosophy of redundancy and planning for the worst. I also have had the philosophy of using the right tool for the job. I have many camera systems although I rely almost exclusively on MF for my B&W work. I figure with luck I have 10-15 years of intense shooting left so I need to have functional gear for that period. As my shooting requirements/restrictions change with where I travel to and the possibility of wanting to work in different ways I have invested heavily in different camera systems.

I currently own an extensive system of Rolleiflex 6008i series cameras, this year I bought another camera body.
I currently own an extensive system of Mamiya 7II cameras, this year I bought another body and back up lenses.
I currently own an extensive system of Fuji GX680III cameras, this year I bought 2 more bodies.
After a 22 year absence this year I bought Hasselblad cameras, a 501cm and a 503cw, plus a few lenses.

Why? Why make such an investment at this point when all of these cameras are out of production and face fewer available parts?

First, I made these purchases now as a year from now, two years from now, etc. finding these cameras in excellent condition and mechanically reliable will be harder and even more expensive. It's taken me some time and effort to even find these "new" bodies in the condition that I want and it was not cheap.

Next, when I travel on a shoot I always carry at least two bodies of the same camera system. This way if one breaks the trip is not over. If I only own two bodies, then if one breaks I'm down to having to future travel with only one body until I find a suitable replacement, and that is getting harder and more expensive every day.

Owning more than 2 bodies of each system also means that if a body breaks, not only do I still have my minimum working bodies but I now have a parts camera assuming I can't get it fixed. Parts will be getting more scarce as well so even a non functioning body still has value.

The other strategy I took was to also invest in a camera system that was as simply made as possible, a camera lacking electronics, having as few moving parts as possible. I used to own a Fuji GX617II system. Two bodies and all the lenses. However aside from the fact that 6x17cm is a little too wide for me, the cameras themselves were not simple designs. They had electronics and a lot of plastic parts not easily replaced if broken. Eventually I switched to Fotoman 612 cameras. First off they were relatively inexpensive compared to the GX617II, the sale of which paid for the switch, but most importantly they had few moving parts, no electronics and pretty much all of their parts could be duplicated by a good machinist. And being so simple, even crude to some extent, they were very durable.

My approach may seem extreme to those not reliant on their gear for income, but on a lesser scale if you love working a certain way, and love working with the camera you have, you might need to consider furthering your investment in that system. One can argue why potentially invest in something that in the long term might not maintain value, but that holds true for all camera gear. That great digital camera today will be worth very little in a decade. A decade from now that used Hasselblad you buy today might be worth what you paid for it. Think that Nikon D810 or Sony A7 or Canon will?

 

[Ai Print]

Owning more than 2 bodies of each system also means that if a body breaks, not only do I still have my minimum working bodies but I now have a parts camera assuming I can't get it fixed. Parts will be getting more scarce as well so even a non functioning body still has value.

Regarding the entire post, pretty much what I have been thinking & doing more and more lately too. I have three major systems that I use to create images with and like you, for a living. My main one is Hasselblad so I have 3x 501CM's and a 500ELX that is strictly for aerial work. I plan to add at least two more bodies that would be either 501CM or 503CW types. I could add 500CM's to the mix too as they are by far the most prevalent but full parts compatibility has me leaning towards the newer models.

Hasselblad V lenses and large format lenses all have the shutter mechanisms in the lens so those need duplicates as well, at least in the most often used ones. It also used to be that pros would have 3-5 of one body type just so if one were in the shop getting a CLA, the ability to have solid backup was still sound. Now it is a bit of all of that...

 

[jbrubaker]

I sympathize with the op and have felt the same way. However, I just bought a Bronica Sq-ai kit to supplement my Rollei TLR's. I wanted to have some wide angle options that are not possible with Rollei. The Bronica gear is well made but very cheap right now. Since I worry about electronic gear going bad, I bought a second body. Buying extra used gear is very often cheaper than a repair would be. I am nearly 70 years old, so I guess I'll expire before my camera gear does! Regards---john.

 

[Ai Print]

I *just* bought my 4th Hasselblad 501CM body...this thread has been bad for my bank account but good for my squadron, LOL!

 

[Pioneer]

Forever is a time period I am not willing to bet on, but I doubt film will die anytime soon.

Besides, I have enough film stored to keep me going for the rest of my anticipated life span, and I still buy more in case I live longer.

EDIT - I have recently purchased 4 new cameras of various format, which will almost certainly outlive me. I have one daughter and three grandchildren who have been trained to work with film and understand the process all the way to the darkroom printing stage. That is three more film photographers coming from this household alone.

I am trying to do my part to keep film alive. But what I cannot do is support one manufacturer to the exclusion of all others. That seems to me to be a way to destroy the market, not maintain it. Spreading your money around to different players in the film world keeps more of them viable.

And don't knock cottage industries. They keep a lot of old traditions and crafts alive.

 

[removed account4]

Im sure once upon a time artists oil paints were very cheap. But as it became a shrinking market, prices of artists oils, canvas and good artist brushes sky rocketed. Same is happening with film as demand dwindles.

So will film ever die? I doubt it but it will certainly get expensive as with all hobby related materials. I don't mind paying for film if my master piece is going to fetch a decent price in a gallery. Even if its just for my personal use, Im enjoying the pleasures of having made it myself.

Money is worthless... its what you can convert it to that has value. I convert my money to pleasure.

.

i understand what you are saying and i agree !
but i think that the average film photographer will get tired
of the expense ( maybe ) and get kind of cranky after a while.
sure there is a market for it there will most likely be a manufacturer like you say
there still are people making and selling buggy whips after all ...
but 25 bucks a roll is beyond what some might be able to afford

i don't think pigment paints were ever very inexpensive. the minerals and materials
used to make " sacred blue " for example is made of lapis lazuli mined and muled from
the mountains of afghanistan and hauled on the spice road to europe, IDK 15 years ago
there was a exposé on it on NPR and how the people bringing it to europe had to pay fantastic
sums in protection fees, and bribes to pirates and bandits ...

 

[marcmarc]

I'm kind of on the same mindset as the OP. There is a limited supply of film cameras and as the years go by that number shrinks little by little. Parts stop being made which means in many cases they have to be pulled from other bodies and on and on. I just posted about how I'm no longer going to spend any more money on my Rolleicord now that it's randomly not exposing frames and occasionally overlaps other frames only a year after a major overhaul. I would guess I only put around 30-40 rolls through it. It's very frustrating to put several hundred dollars into overhauling a camera only to have to do it again the following year. It's not so much the money although for folks with modest incomes such as myself it is a consideration, it's more that it weighs on your mind that using older cameras means that they can fail at anytime and you may not know it until after the film is developed. I've posted before the problems I had years ago getting my Nikon F2 body into working, reliable condition. I love the F2 but it just got to the point where it was downright comical to say nothing of expensive having to send it to several different shops, none of whom were able to get the camera working. I took it after one repair to a immigration march and shot probably about 30 rolls. Out of that entire quantity only maybe five frames were properly exposed. All the rest were useless, even almost entire rolls that were blank. So yeah, I'm not too optimistic either about the future of film photography but I'll stay with it as long as my patience and money for repairs can hold out. I'm going to start looking for a Mamiya C330 and I really hope I can find one that will serve me as well as my RZ67 equipment has. I'll have to find a repair place near me I can trust with it as my Mamiya trained service tech retired years ago.

 

[Ai Print]

I'm kind of on the same mindset as the OP. There is a limited supply of film cameras and as the years go by that number shrinks little by little. Parts stop being made which means in many cases they have to be pulled from other bodies and on and on. I just posted about how I'm no longer going to spend any more money on my Rolleicord now that it's randomly not exposing frames and occasionally overlaps other frames only a year after a major overhaul. I would guess I only put around 30-40 rolls through it. It's very frustrating to put several hundred dollars into overhauling a camera only to have to do it again the following year. It's not so much the money although for folks with modest incomes such as myself it is a consideration, it's more that it weighs on your mind that using older cameras means that they can fail at anytime and you may not know it until after the film is developed. I've posted before the problems I had years ago getting my Nikon F2 body into working, reliable condition. I love the F2 but it just got to the point where it was downright comical to say nothing of expensive having to send it to several different shops, none of whom were able to get the camera working. I took it after one repair to a immigration march and shot probably about 30 rolls. Out of that entire quantity only maybe five frames were properly exposed. All the rest were useless, even almost entire rolls that were blank. So yeah, I'm not too optimistic either about the future of film photography but I'll stay with it as long as my patience and money for repairs can hold out. I'm going to start looking for a Mamiya C330 and I really hope I can find one that will serve me as well as my RZ67 equipment has. I'll have to find a repair place near me I can trust with it as my Mamiya trained service tech retired years ago.

Yeah, that is a pretty bad run of luck. I generally avoid the really old stuff but some of it is just a joy to use like my 61 year old Leica M3. I had it CLA'd 10 years ago and since then it smacked into rocks when I slipped on ice and has been dropped on concrete when the strap caught on something. It works perfectly, for now. Other than that, all my cameras are not older than 20 years.

I don't have a choice but to build up really backed up systems and keep them in top shape and that means as recent a camera I can possibly get in any of the formats I use. The only thing more risky than that is not doing it at all and living a very unfulfilled life...that is not an option.

 

[paul ron]

Owning more than 2 bodies of each system also means that if a body breaks, not only do I still have my minimum working bodies but I now have a parts camera assuming I can't get it fixed. Parts will be getting more scarce as well so even a non functioning body still has value.

as said before, once prices of film hits the roof and becomes more scarce, there will be plenty of cameras hitting the streets. people will be selling cameras as mantle ornaments and making lamps out of them.. parts won't be the problem... finding someone to work on your camera will be more of an issue.

learn to do your own repairs on what you have. its a nice hobby that will keep your photography hobby alive.