Cynicism in Continuing to Invest in Medium Format

Zyklus · Jun 30, 2017

Thanks for all of the responses. It is good to see people have a real commitment to continuing to shoot MF.

There is one thing that I would like to clarify though; there is no doubt that there is an extraordinary supply of second hand cameras available at the moment. However the crux of my post wasn't regarding the concern of these second hand camera necessarily disappearing. It has to do with the fact that every second hand camera purchase is money that isn't going to those manufacturers still championing film. My post was intended to further discussion around potential loyalty to manufacturers who are sticking it out rather than funneling potential revenue into a second hand market. My worry is that by continuing to rely on second hand cameras, primarily from companies that are no longer with us, that the fate of companies that more deserve our attention and business are likely to disappear too.

AgX · Jun 30, 2017

But such committment of the buyer regarding current manufacturers means paying a premium.
(Letting aside the technical issue of new vs. used.)

4season · Jun 30, 2017

Sure we're supporting manufacturers: We're buying film! interest in film photography circa 2017 is much higher than I would have expected. Wasn't prepared to spend $2K on a Cosina-Fujifilm-Voigtlander folder, but I do buy stuff from Lomography sometimes.

BrianShaw · Jun 30, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
Hmm. Do you mean to say that you shoot MF to support manufacturers rather than because using MF makes sense for you?

You must be very wealthy.

...

removed account4 · Jun 30, 2017

hi again zyklus

i totally understand where you are coming from, but i don't have the $$ to buy anything new .. maybe a holga?
here in the states a new rollei slr ( with lens ) is like 9.600, a new rollei tlr ( with lenses ) is 5.600
( not sure who else makes new MF gear but holga, and pinhole camera makers, [cynic]hasselblad from what i was was told
by someone in the industry kind of puts a new nameplate on an old camera, so im not sure if they would
count seeing they are owned by venture capitilists, like polaroid was, who want to squeeze $ out of their
name and hot potato the brand to someone else to do the same thing[/cynic] )

sure it would be great to drop that much coin on a true work of art. rollies are beautiful cameras ..
maybe when i die i will put in my will that i be burried with one, im sure there will be film in heaven ..
but to me a used camera would allow me to actually buy film after the camera is purchased. and a used rollei is a fraction of those #'s
... if i spent my savings on the camera it does no use... if i can't afford film. ( and processing if it is color ).

E. von Hoegh · Jun 30, 2017

Invest in MF? My last MF acquisition was a 1946 Rollei Automat; glass as new, shutter sticky on slow speeds, transport stiff, cost 0. I invested some time and some lubricants, the camera will last longer than I will. Buying new gear is never an investment unless you are using it to make money, since virtually all commercial workflow is di9it@l, kind of a pointless point.

Dan Fromm · Jun 30, 2017

Zyklus said:
It has to do with the fact that every second hand camera purchase is money that isn't going to those manufacturers still championing film. My post was intended to further discussion around potential loyalty to manufacturers who are sticking it out rather than funneling potential revenue into a second hand market. My worry is that by continuing to rely on second hand cameras, primarily from companies that are no longer with us, that the fate of companies that more deserve our attention and business are likely to disappear too.

If you want me to buy new MF cameras (many, buying just one wll have no effect), send money. If you're not going buy new cameras for me, shut up.

Oh, and by the way, camera manufacturers don't support film manufacturers. People who buy film support film manufacturers. With that fact in mind, why are you shilling for camera manufacturers?

MattKing · Jun 30, 2017

If the "camera manufacturers" were interested in this, they could probably build a business increasing the resources out there to repair and rebuild existing cameras (and sell parts in support).
I'm not sure though that the camera manufacturers ever made much money on the system cameras themselves. On accessories like lenses, I believe they did make money.

BrianShaw · Jun 30, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
If you want me to buy new MF cameras (many, buying just one wll have no effect), send money. If you're not going buy new cameras for me, shut up.

Oh, and by the way, camera manufacturers don't support film manufacturers. People who buy film support film manufacturers. With that fact in mind, why are you shilling for camera manufacturers?

If he buys them for himself it would have the same effect. But so far it seems like there is just philosophical talk and no action.

BrianShaw · Jun 30, 2017

jnanian said:
... im sure there will be film in heaven ...

There will be no need for film in heaven... I assure you. (Hey, that would make a great song title... maybe we should collaborate!)

removed account4 · Jun 30, 2017

BrianShaw said:
There will be no need for film in heaven... I assure you. (Hey, that would make a great song title... maybe we should collaborate!)

its a deal !

Alan Gales · Jun 30, 2017

BrianShaw said:
There will be no need for film in heaven... I assure you. (Hey, that would make a great song title... maybe we should collaborate!)

That's easy, Brian. Just substitute film for beer. Oh, in heaven there is no film, that's why we shoot it here.........

BrianShaw · Jun 30, 2017

Perfect!

Dan Fromm · Jun 30, 2017

BrianShaw said:
If he buys them for himself it would have the same effect. But so far it seems like there is just philosophical talk and no action.

From McClane's New Standard Fishing Encyclopedia:

A method of angling whereby an artificial lure or natural bait is drawn behind a moving boat ...

Chris Livsey · Jun 30, 2017

BrianShaw said:
There will be no need for film in heaven... I assure you.

Don't tell me they've gone digital as well !!

MattKing · Jun 30, 2017

I actually appreciate the OP's mindset and approach.
A couple of decades ago, it was an appropriate way to think of things.
If you were embarking on a "serious" medium format journey, you would think long and hard about issues like warranty support, an active presence in the marketplace, a likelihood that there would be new and improved models appearing reasonably regularly and, in particular, a robust portfolio of accessories being made and distributed. You also would be concerned about manufacturer support being available.
You were concerned about all this because:
1) you were paying substantial sums to "invest" in the equipment;
2) you would likely be paying substantial sums for film to be used in the cameras, and lab costs or darkroom materials and equipment for dealing with those films;
3) most likely you were doing this as a business, rather than a hobby (dentists with Hasselblads being the exception), and
4) you expected to have to spend money regularly to maintain your equipment.
A lot of reality has changed since those were the norms for "serious" medium format.

Sirius Glass · Jun 30, 2017

I shoot MF because I enjoy using 120 film. I have money to buy more cameras, lenses, ... , I unfortunately have run out of photography equipment that I want and do not own. Since there is nothing else that I want to purchase I will just have to enjoy what I already have. Such is life without GAS.

Jacob Weiss · Jun 30, 2017

Zyklus said:
Fuji on the opposite end of the spectrum prove time and time again that they have zero interest in continual support towards film and film shooters; I no longer touch their products.

Zyklus said:
Rollei is gone.

For those of us who still print color in the darkroom, who has stuck around and continued to produce RA-4 paper? Fuji

Or still produce *multiple* slide film stocks? Rollei and Fuji

Alan Gales · Jun 30, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
I shoot MF because I enjoy using 120 film. I have money to buy more cameras, lenses, ... , I unfortunately have run out of photography equipment that I want and do not own. Since there is nothing else that I want to purchase I will just have to enjoy what I already have. Such is life without GAS.

You could start collecting Pez candy dispensers or beanie babies or something!

faberryman · Jun 30, 2017

MattKing said:
I actually appreciate the OP's mindset and approach.
A couple of decades ago, it was an appropriate way to think of things.
If you were embarking on a "serious" medium format journey, you would think long and hard about issues like warranty support, an active presence in the marketplace, a likelihood that there would be new and improved models appearing reasonably regularly and, in particular, a robust portfolio of accessories being made and distributed. You also would be concerned about manufacturer support being available.
You were concerned about all this because:
1) you were paying substantial sums to "invest" in the equipment;
2) you would likely be paying substantial sums for film to be used in the cameras, and lab costs or darkroom materials and equipment for dealing with those films;
3) most likely you were doing this as a business, rather than a hobby (dentists with Hasselblads being the exception), and
4) you expected to have to spend money regularly to maintain your equipment.
A lot of reality has changed since those were the norms for "serious" medium format.

Right. A couple of decades those were serious concerns. Earth to OP: it's not a couple of decades ago. Deal with the present reality, which means use MF cameras that are no longer being made. This is the same situation with 35mm film cameras (with the exception of the Nikon F6 and the Leica MA/MP), yet there is a growing renaissance of non-hand-wringing, enthusiastic 35mm film shooters. Get with the program.

pbromaghin · Jun 30, 2017

Sax and banjo? That's avant garde polka!

Sim2 · Jun 30, 2017

If you are serious in considering future support for a MF camera and current new system parts, buy a Hasselblad H6x.
As far as I know, exactly the same camera as the H6 (50 or 100) but with interchangeable backs for digi or for film and access to all current lenses and accessories. Contact Hasselblad to see how long they will support the H system cameras for, but I see no sign of them disappearing soon!
Perhaps an expensive option – but don't say the option doesn't exist.

Besk · Jun 30, 2017

Buy a freezer, buy several thousand dollars of film for the freezer and start shooting. If you purchase enough film you won't run out in your
lifetime. Then don't worry about keeping anyone in business.

Sirius Glass · Jun 30, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
I shoot MF because I enjoy using 120 film. I have money to buy more cameras, lenses, ... , I unfortunately have run out of photography equipment that I want and do not own. Since there is nothing else that I want to purchase I will just have to enjoy what I already have. Such is life without GAS.

Alan Gales said:
You could start collecting Pez candy dispensers or beanie babies or something!

I guess that I could go out and by a Leica range finder but it still would not be a SLR.

ME Super · Jun 30, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
Don't tell me they've gone digital as well !!

No, I think in Heaven they use analog neural networks for image capture/storage. It works better than human memory.

For those of you going "I thought neural networks were all digital" - I assure you they're not. I took a digital circuit design class in college. One of the laboratory assignments was to construct a neural network capable of recognizing two optical patterns. When I saw the graph of the algorithm we were to use, I said "We can do this with an analog circuit." And we did. A couple operational amplifiers (op-amps), a couple diodes, and a few resistors formed each neuron in our neural network. We got an A on that lab, as I recall. Analog circuits CAN fit in a digital design class.

Cynicism in Continuing to Invest in Medium Format

Zyklus

AgX

4season

BrianShaw

removed account4

E. von Hoegh

Dan Fromm

MattKing

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BrianShaw

BrianShaw

removed account4

Alan Gales

BrianShaw

Dan Fromm

Chris Livsey

MattKing

Moderator

Sirius Glass

Jacob Weiss

Alan Gales

faberryman

pbromaghin

Sim2

Besk

Sirius Glass

ME Super

Cynicism in Continuing to Invest in Medium Format

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