Curious problem with Zeiss Super Ikonta IV

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I recent went on a trip shooting with my Super Ikonta IV. I shot two types of film. The first type is Arista EDU Ultra 120 and Fuji Acros. The issue is spacing of the frames. On the Arista EDU film has evenly spaced frames with the thicker base. However, with Fuji Acros, there's no space between the frames and at times, a slight overlap. The base is thinner with Fuji Acros. Is the thickness of the film causing the problem?

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Yes , its about film thickness.

Here is a thread for Zeiss Ikonta Film Overlapping Issue :


(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Umut

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Hey Umut.

Thanks for the link!

Best,
Don

 

[R.Gould]

Don,It's about film thickness, also about the thickness of the backing paper, modern films use a thinner backing paper than 30 or 40 years ago, and when these cameras were built they the winding was designed for the thicker backing paper, with the arista, which I believe is foma by another name, they still use this thicker backing paper, I have a balda super baldessa, with hp5 or tri x the frames are very close, with fomapan they are fine, I get the same thing with my Rolleicard, although not so bad, but with newer film with thin backing paper then the frames are closer together than with fomapan. I don't have a super Ikonta in my collection, but the MF Folders I do have from the 40's and 50's with auto winding also allow me to use the red window and that sorts the problem out, if you can use red window on your Ikonta I would use that, a bit more fiddly but more reliable with modern film in old cameras.
Richard

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Hey Richard.

Thanks for the tip. My Super Ikonta does have a red window. I've used a Chinese made Pearl River with a red window and it works well. I would however have to figure out how to stop the indexing feature of the camera.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Don ,

I did not have your camera yet but manual few milimeters of sliding the film with thinking its ever needed would save you from future trouble. Can you post few images from the camera ? What lens its fitted with ? I would expect very low contrast , old fashion newspaper like prints from these cameras in bw.
But velvia would be wonderful with low contrast lens. I found that there is a eye catching aberrattions at these cameras , something like looking to a newspaper with magnifier. I found that look at the voigtlander lenses also.

Take care ,

Umut

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Sure Umut. I shot only BW film with the camera and the contrast is not bad. I'll send you the images later.
Best,
Don

 

[R.Gould]

Don, I don't know the super Ikonta, as yet I don't have one in my collection, but the Balda super baldax I have you wind the film to 1 in the red window then the winding should take over, but as I said, with modern films it does not work, and the way over this is to use the winder back and forth, within the limits of the winding, like you would with an old clockwork watch, from number to number, maybe the Ikonta has a similer type of winding,
Richard

 

[graywolf]

Most of the medium format folders with film counters, do it by counting the turns of the take up spool. If you use modern thin base film that does not work well. Foma (and the same stuff relabeled as Arista.EDU Ultra), is thick enough to work in those cameras with proper film spacing.

I have a Hapo 66e (rebranded Baldix RF), and and Iskra with film counters (Also a Kodak Monitor, but it needs a new bellows). The Hapo counts the turns and will only work with the Arista, the Iskra counts frames by picking the backing paper with a spiked wheel and will accurately count frames with everything I have tried. I like the Arista, it is cheap, and works well in all my 120 cameras. I mostly use the 100, occasionally the 400. I wish they had a 25 version as it would give me the shallow DOF in bright sun I can not get with the slower shutter top speeds on some of my cameras.

 

[Peltigera]

Don,It's about film thickness, also about the thickness of the backing paper, modern films use a thinner backing paper than 30 or 40 years ago, and when these cameras were built they the winding was designed for the thicker backing paper, with the arista, which I believe is foma by another name, they still use this thicker backing paper, I have a balda super baldessa, with hp5 or tri x the frames are very close, with fomapan they are fine, I get the same thing with my Rolleicard, although not so bad, but with newer film with thin backing paper then the frames are closer together than with fomapan. I don't have a super Ikonta in my collection, but the MF Folders I do have from the 40's and 50's with auto winding also allow me to use the red window and that sorts the problem out, if you can use red window on your Ikonta I would use that, a bit more fiddly but more reliable with modern film in old cameras.
Richard

I don't have an Ikonta but I do have an Ikoflex (both Zeiss Ikon) and with that camera, if you use the red window, you only get eight exposures per roll. Once you have set the first frame with the red window, it is essential to use the internal frame counting to get the full twelve frames per roll.

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

My super ikonta iv does not allow the user to ability to advance using the window. Each advance/spool on is predetermined and locks in place with counter. The window in the back is to check if there is film in camera only, and not to place frames.

It's been documented online quite a bit that this camera needs about a 2inch section of backing paper taped to leader to have consistent spacing. I do it and it works fine, but can be a hassle if you shoot more than one medium format camera in the bag. You also have to plan ahead with the tape and rubber band/ use 120 canisters.

 

[DWThomas]

This got me thinking (yes, dangerous!) -- how much unexposed film is left at the end of your frames? Depending on the loading procedure, maybe you could advance past the "Start" line an inch or so more than normal when loading to get a little more buildup on the take-up spool. My Ercona II uses the red window, so I've not personally experienced this problem, but I'd say there is almost two inches of blank film at the end of my rolls (Acros & 400TX).

 

[R.Gould]

I don't have an Ikonta but I do have an Ikoflex (both Zeiss Ikon) and with that camera, if you use the red window, you only get eight exposures per roll. Once you have set the first frame with the red window, it is essential to use the internal frame counting to get the full twelve frames per roll.

Strangely, with my Ensign Commando it is the other way around, if you use the internal frame counter then you only get 11 exposures, but if switch the counter off, (it has a simple switch which either sets the counter, or allows use of the red window) then you get the full set, with my Super baldax I get twelve whatever I do,
With your Ikoflex is it a dual size,? many cameras were either 8 6X9 or with a mask 12 6x6, I have an Ensign 820, which is as the above, I generally use it with the built in mask aas 6x6
Richard

 

[Peltigera]

My Ikoflex uses the 6x9 numbers for 6x6 pictures - it dates from before 6x6 numbers were universal on 120 film. Hence, use the window for frame one and then the internal counter.