Curious about possibly using forever.com for archival digital photo storage

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TomR55

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I think that this topic has evolved into an interesting, and educational thread. Certainly, a sector of the "tech industry" capitalizes on the idea of "foreverness" for want of a better term. But, as I suspect, those who work within these technologies know better: nothing is forever.

I continue to do any work that I use and intend for others to see on film. Yes, I know that films can be lost in fires, floods, and a variety of other natural and man-made disasters (although distinguishing amongst these is becoming increasingly difficult), but, at the end of the day, it's just another medium that offers some durability over time.

Certainly at least one theme emerges here; redundancy through multiple media and modes ... and the gods of fortune ... .
 

Steven Lee

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Nothing is forever, and past performance does not guarantee future returns. But buying storage from a leading vendor in 2023 can offer a reasonable compromise between price, convenience and longevity.

My suggestion is to use Amazon S3. This is the service that most storage companies use under the hood, probably including forever.com. Because it's one of the oldest and widely used system, I find it inconceivable that Amazon will just decide to delete everyone's data some day. Yes, they may decide to pull out of that business, but there's a robust ecosystem of data export and migration tools available today to easily migrate elsewhere.
 

koraks

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Would you have any good Enclosure/Disk recommendations?

If you were to consider this route, I'd suggest looking into the Synology Diskstation range of products. The higher end models support RAID5. They're quite user friendly. It's not like DIY-ing a server, which is indeed a chore.
 
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It’s surprising who, over the years “cares” about one’s hobby as a “photo bug.”

While wondering what ever happened to the missile site I was assigned to in the early, mid-‘70s when I was in the army in Europe, I stumbled upon an online group about that specific unit. I was definitely a “photo bug” then and have MANY photos shot around the barracks, the base, (never of the site itself due to security), and pretty good coverage of our trip to Crete when the unit went there to fire a live missile. I posted lots of these images to the group and many of the guys (it was all guys back then) were pretty happy about it and were able to put names to faces including their own. I also had quite a few images of a warrant officer who befriended me, had me over for meals, and out with his family on the the town (Wiesbaden.). He responded to me in a direct email and we had a few exchanges and then his daughter posted that he had just passed away and was grateful for all the photos and memories.

So, you never know who, after many years, might care about one’s photos.

But Vincent, those are your pictures and you're still alive. Who's going to know about them afterwards and go through thousands of pictures and even know what they're looking at. The point I was making was that we should go through our own pictures while we're alive. Make hard copies of the important ones, usually family and friends, and give them as gifts to those familiy and friends now. Most relatives just aren't going to spend the time going through thousands of our pictures after we're gone.

Your story about your posting in Germany reminds me of the B/W photo album my cousin gave me of her parents during WWII when they met and got married. I scanned all the photos and made a digital video slide show that I gave to them on DVDs with 1940's Big Band music in the background. A 70-year-old photo album showed the archival value of having prints.
 

TomR55

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If you were to consider this route, I'd suggest looking into the Synology Diskstation range of products. The higher end models support RAID5. They're quite user friendly. It's not like DIY-ing a server, which is indeed a chore.

Thank you for the suggestion; I'd actually come across several references to "Sinology" during my various searches, and now having additional references suggests that it's something that should be investigated.
 

VinceInMT

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But Vincent, those are your pictures and you're still alive. Who's going to know about them afterwards and go through thousands of pictures and even know what they're looking at.

Every image I’ve ever shot is stored and cataloged in a database. My kids have access to the database and when I’m gone I am thinking of putting it in the public domain through a historical group I am familiar with. That it is searchable by subject could prove valuable others.

BTW, the vast majority of my images are not family, friends, or pictures of me on vacation.
 

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Use of two cloud services is ensurance that your backed up data remains available in spite of the fact that...

1. some cloud data storage services have gone bankrupt and some even disappeared without transfer of data to a surviving service​
  • (June 2019)"(Bloomberg) -- Cloud computing provider Fusion Connect Inc. filed bankruptcy after a botched business plan and a pair of mergers piled on more debt than the company could repay."
  • Ubuntu One, start of service 5/2009, announced on 4/2014 shutdown
  • Nirvanix, launched 2007, announced shutdown 9/2013 with two weeks notice to customers one month later files for bankruptcy -- in spite of being IBM's Smartcloud Storage partner.
  • Megaupload, had online storate and viewing services, was shut by DOJ in 1/2012 as an organization dedicated to copyright infringement
  • Startup Vaultscape, launched its service in 2009, closed its doors in 2010.
  • The Linkup, closed 8/2008 after losing customer data
  • Cryptoseal Privacy, a VPN service which closed, leaving users with the following message:
  • "With immediate effect as of this notice, CryptoSeal Privacy, our consumer VPN service, is terminated. All cryptographic keys used in the operation of the service have been zerofilled, and while no logs were produced (by design) during operation of the service, all records created incidental to the operation of the service have been deleted to the best of our ability."
2. some very large corporations have offered cloud data storage, only to eventually back out of offering that service (exit)​
{list]​

  • Symantec, Backup Exec launched 2005, announced exit 2/2012
  • Iron Mountain, entered cloud storage 2/2009, exited 4/2011.
  • EMC, started Atmos 11/2008, announces 1/2010 shutdown of Atmos storage business {/list]
Note: 'exit' means withdrawl from that market, which is not the same as 'business closing'​
In view of the low cost of storage hardware today, (you can buy 1TB external HD for only about $50-60) it is far easier to be self-reliant for data archive purposes...have a friend/relative save one of the two harddrives at their house, if you fear fire consequences.​
That still leaves the issue of technology migration, and somehow getting someone to maintain the connectivity of storage devices despite the changes to computer internal bus and storage unit controllers compatible on new busses.​
(This very topic was discussed a long time ago, and I only needed to carry over information from my prior post and update it with newer failures!)​
 
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MurrayMinchin

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If you have Amazon Prime, you also get free unlimited photo storage, even for RAW photos, but it's apparently limited to about 8 countries. The cap for storing video for free is low, and if you exceed that amount you have to pay.

Amazon Prime makes sense for us because we live in a town without a theatre, and free shipping on many items makes sense because of how far off the beaten path we are.

They will make nefarious use of them (data research, etc) so there is that...
 

Steven Lee

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@wiltw I do not understand your argument. You listed a bunch of losers who failed to enter the market losing competition to the leaders as evidence that cloud storage companies are unreliable? Shouldn't the conclusion be to use the products made by market leaders like S3, Google Drive, or Dropbox?

But instead, you state that "In view of the low cost of storage hardware today, (you can buy 1TB external HD for only about $50-60) it is far easier to be self-reliant for data archive purposes.". But if someone posted a list of self-reliant people who lost all of their data by mistake, the list would be so long that your browser would likely hang trying to render it.

I am not advocating for one option being better than the other (if one has the skills to manage data, go ahead). Just trying to understand the logic here. Every product category has its own list of failed businesses in that market segment, but that's not a reason to be avoiding the category.
 

wiltw

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@wiltw I do not understand your argument. t segment, but that's not a reason to be avoiding the category.
I was merely illstrating my point that a good number of cloud storage services ceased to exist, or they simply pulled out of that service (while they maintained presence in other business segments). I present supporting evidence of that statement. Therefore, reliance upon any single vendor carries risks, and the risk persists (witness one exit in 2019) even though the cloiud storage service has existed since about 2005...it is not 'teething pain' in a baby industry that is the root cause. The point is not avoidance of this as a solution, the point is citing caution by the user in choosing...do not assume perpetual existence of a chosen vendor, as the OP is wanting to do in leaving data to his survivors.

So rather than pay $500 for a service (as the OP mentioned) investment of about $100 provides reduancy of 1TB capacity storage device. Reduancy with cost saving (vs. cloud). An alternate consideration with redunacy rather than reliance upon a single harddrive.

I pointed out the issue of technology migration as not being addressed by a do-it-yourself archive (two 1TB HD), as a heads-up...a lot of folks do NOT consider that to be an issue at all! First, USB is considered to be a durable interface, and certainly so is in-house internet networking. OP can make up his mind whether or not to be concerned about technology micration issues.

I am not siding one way or the other...there are multiple approaches that can be taken, and all have pro's and con's to them. A wise person simply weighs the two and decides the right approach FOR THEM! One person's choice is another person's poison, because their priorities differ.
 
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Steven Lee

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I see. Yeah, it actually makes sense to do both. I think I advocated earlier for smart NAS boxes like Synology or Qnap. This way you have all of your data available locally for very little money, but the box will upload and store another copy on numerous storage providers (you can configure more than one). That has to be the most bulletproof setup.
 

wiltw

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I see. Yeah, it actually makes sense to do both. I think I advocated earlier for smart NAS boxes like Synology or Qnap. This way you have all of your data available locally for very little money, but the box will upload and store another copy on numerous storage providers (you can configure more than one). That has to be the most bulletproof setup.

I have Synology NAS RAID storage configured as RAID1 for data redundancy. One issue I cannot make go away is the attempt by hackers to get into the Synology for access to my data. Fortunately my internet provider has software that disables access to the storage unit, but it is an annoyance to power it down and power it up again, so I merely turn it on only when I want to read/write to that device, when I want to do an incremental datal backup to it!
 

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I use local storage (multiple external drives, one in the fire safe) and iCloud where I think I have a terabyte. I doubt if Apple is going anywhere soon and if it does, my son is a software engineer there and my guess is that he’ll give me a heads up.
 

Steven Lee

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I have Synology NAS RAID storage configured as RAID1 for data redundancy. One issue I cannot make go away is the attempt by hackers to get into the Synology for access to my data. Fortunately my internet provider has software that disables access to the storage unit, but it is an annoyance to power it down and power it up again, so I merely turn it on only when I want to read/write to that device, when I want to do an incremental data backup to it!
You don't need any software from (god forbid!) an Internet provider to disable anything. A NAS box sitting on LAN is not accessible from the Internet unless you explicitly configured port forwarding on your WAN-facing router. Synology can run for years without ever being turned off (12 years and counting in my case) and the vulnerability you're referring to from several years ago was found in their remote management interface which wasn't even turned on by default and was not needed by most people.

You can relax about the hackers. Hackers are hitting your IP several times per minute. It's absolutely normal on the Internet. It doesn't mean they can hit your laptop. You can run computers 24/7 inside your house. Moreover, Synology can be configured for remotely accessing data on it from the Internet and its fairly safe. For example, my iPhone runs Synology Photos app which allows me to see all my photos stored on the Synology box in my house basement from anywhere in the world. It works like a private Instagram and it's awesome.
 

wiltw

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You don't need any software from (god forbid!) an Internet provider to disable anything. A NAS box sitting on LAN is not accessible from the Internet unless you explicitly configured port forwarding on your WAN-facing router. Synology can run for years without ever being turned off (12 years and counting in my case) and the vulnerability you're referring to from several years ago was found in their remote management interface which wasn't even turned on by default and was not needed by most people.

You can relax about the hackers. Hackers are hitting your IP several times per minute. It's absolutely normal on the Internet. It doesn't mean they can hit your laptop. You can run computers 24/7 inside your house. Moreover, Synology can be configured for remotely accessing data on it from the Internet and its fairly safe. For example, my iPhone runs Synology Photos app which allows me to see all my photos stored on the Synology box in my house basement from anywhere in the world. It works like a private Instagram and it's awesome.

My Synology was never set up for access from outside, the only machines that can access it are on my local network only.
My ISP is Comcast, and the software protection is entirely inherent to their services, and NOT on my PCs...it is inherent to their providing internet services.
I have even set up the Synology to use a network ID which is not what Synology assigns in the factory, nevertheless the Synology is 'deactivated' from all access after too many tries from outside, causing need to reboot it...so i simply leave it off rather than accumulating powered-on hours simply being idle.
 

koraks

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@wiltw, Individual devices on a LAN (behind a router) are by default inaccessible from the outside world. All routers, including the ones used by all ISP's, require manual configuration by the user to enable outside access (port forwarding) to devices on the LAN. This is not ISP specific; it's an inherent property of how TCP/IP was designed.
 

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Small warning about Synology: it seems to be heading towards supporting its own drives only, which are very expensive. QNAP has worked well for me but the software has a history of vulnerabilities, and I currently have an Asustor which is cheap, based on Busybox, and works very well. I rolled my own Unraid NAS for long-term storage for two reasons: firstly, one can simply add drives of any capacity (with one minor caveat), which takes care of all the old drives I have laying around. Secondly, files are not "striped" across drives, so in the event of a cataclysmic failure the files are still accessible on the individual drives making up the cluster. Incidentally, my QNAP has a cheap Tensor dongle attached so it does face and object recognition, etc., on photos which can be useful.

I use the clouds that come with Office 365, Google, Dropbox etc to back up some stuff, via the NASes.

Warnings about huge drives and huge cloud storage: a RAID device with a failed 14TB drive may take a week to rebuild onto a replacement drive. At RAID 1 or RAID 5, your data is very vulnerable for that period. Most cloud storage is rate-limited for downloads: 1TB could take weeks. Indeed, Backblaze recommends using its HD delivery service for really big recoveries. Our Google backups-to-metal (around 4TB) take about one week to prep and then three weeks to actually download. Dropbox has limits on both size and number of files.
 

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@wiltw, All routers, including the ones used by all ISP's, require manual configuration by the user to enable outside access (port forwarding) to devices on the LAN.

I suspect a lot of people don't understand what's happening when they press the "EZShare" button on their latest toy, though.
 

Steven Lee

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I have even set up the Synology to use a network ID which is not what Synology assigns in the factory, nevertheless the Synology is 'deactivated' from all access after too many tries from outside, causing need to reboot it...so i simply leave it off rather than accumulating powered-on hours simply being idle.
In addition to what koraks said regarding network security, I will also add that constantly turning it on and off is unnecessary. A typical dual-bay model has a sleep mode with wake-on-LAN and consumes only about 8W of power when idle.

Also, I am 100% in agreement with @Bushcat: in the era of cheap storage RAID offers very limited utility, while requires above average level of skill to operate properly. The internet is full of scary stories of failed array rebuilds. I recommend automatic bi-weekly cloud backups.
 

koraks

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in the era of cheap storage RAID offers very limited utility

Well, depends a bit. RAID1 still makes sense as it doesn't require rebuilds on a failed drive, and given the low cost of storage, it's affordable. Recovery of a failed drive is a matter of cloning it, which is a fairly quick process on contemporary drives. RAID5 or RAID6 does suffer from the drawbacks you mentioned in requiring attention in laying out the array and time-consuming rebuilds on drive failure.
 

wiltw

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@wiltw, Individual devices on a LAN (behind a router) are by default inaccessible from the outside world. All routers, including the ones used by all ISP's, require manual configuration by the user to enable outside access (port forwarding) to devices on the LAN. This is not ISP specific; it's an inherent property of how TCP/IP was designed.

If I have NEVER enabled access to the outside world, nor have I ever set up with EZShare, please help me to understand why Comcast detects multiple attempts to address my Synology NAS internet ID from outside, and the drive is taken out of access entirely (only the power on light remains on)?
 

Steven Lee

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If I have NEVER enabled access to the outside world, nor have I ever set up with EZShare, please help me to understand why Comcast detects multiple attempts to address my Synology NAS internet ID from outside, and the drive is taken out of access entirely (only the power on light remains on)?

Because Comcast is incompetent. Even the language you use is strange. What is "internet ID"? There is no such thing in network engineering or cybersecurity fields. None of this makes any sense, sounds like a marketing bullcrap to me. I suspect they convinced you to use their software by spreading some kind of FUD. Nobody should ever need any software made by their internet provider, or any software at all. All you need is a modem and a router. No software needed.
 

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@wiltw you NAS phones home from time to time for things like update notifications, and simply to say "I'm here".
@Steven Lee I didn't mean to suggest people shouldn't use NAS, I meant people should understand the tools they are using. I backup network > NAS > NAS > clouds (via a cloud manager). The 30TB on each NAS includes drive image backups, photos and other stuff. I can't afford 30TB of cloud, nor the days of upload time for each image backup, nor the weeks of recovery time. So there are only essentials in the cloud(s), which are managed by the NAS anyway.
 

koraks

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please help me to understand why Comcast detects multiple attempts to address my Synology NAS internet ID from outside

As @Steven Lee pointed out, this information is at least incomplete and probably not entirely accurate, so I can only speculate based on what you say.

First a tiny bit of background: The general way of setting up a home internet connection (99.9999% of the cases or so) is through whatever hardware infrastructure (e.g. fiber or DSL) which enters into a modem, which is generally also a router. This router has a public IP address that's in principle visible from the internet. The essence of a router is that it is the link between two networks, in this case an external one (the internet) and your local home network. On this home network, you have your WiFi access point (often integrated in the same modem/router device), IPTV, computer and any servers. This home network also uses IP addresses, but these addresses are not visible from the outside.

When an agent somewhere on the internet connects to your IP address, this connection requests ends up at your router. Since ComCast provides the connection between your router and the overall internet infrastructure, they can (and do) monitor this traffic. This incoming request will then be handled by the router, but by default, it's not set to actually handle anything. This is because unless we explicitly tell the router where the incoming traffic should be directed to, it wouldn't even know which device on the home network to send it to. Note that the router doesn't 'know' anything about Diskstations, iPhones, Windows laptops or smart TV's etc. - it just sees nodes with an internal network address and as far as the router is concerned, they're all equal. So unless we tell the router "if a request of type X comes in, send it to this local IP address", no attempts to access your network from the outside will end up anywhere at all. They'll just fall dead on the floor inside the router.

Now, how does ComCast 'know' that there are 'attacks' on your Diskstation? If a request is made by one IP address to another, it uses a 'port' to signify what kind of traffic this is. You could imagine these 'ports' as mailboxes in the hallway of the same office building, with the office building having just one street address (this would be the IP address in our analogy). So for instance, opening a connection with a machine via port 80 is the usual way of approaching a web server for HTML etc., port 21 is used for FTP (file transfer), etc. One interesting instance here is port 5000, which is commonly used by Synology/Diskstation for several purposes, including accessing its management console. So if ComCast detects an attempt to connect to your public IP address over port 5000, it may file this in a user-friendly way as an access attempt to a Diskstation device.

Now, the issue with port 5000 is that it is used by a whole slew of devices, services and apps. Some of those are legitimate (e.g. Diskstation or OctoPrint, a 3D printer print server, or UPNP, a Windows service that's running by default on all Windows machines) and some of those are so-called Trojan horses: viruses that embed themselves in a system and open a backdoor (using port 5000 for instance) to allow access from the outside world.

So based on the scant information you gave, I suspect that ComCast is seeing incoming connection attempts to your IP address on port 5000, and it displays this to you as 'Diskstation' because it's one of the common uses for that type of traffic. However, from the above you can also surmise that: (1) you actually don't know for sure it's really Diskstation-related, and I'd go so far as to say, it probably isn't, and (2) the connection attempt reported by ComCast only extends as far as your router, because ComCast also can't look at the local network side of your router (!) and (3) even if the connection attempts reach your router, your router won't forward them to your Diskstation unless you explicitly tell it to do so.

Of course, it's in ComCast's interest to show how many attempts to access your IP address they have monitored in order to keep you convinced that their security systems are worth paying for. Nothing wrong with that, but pretty much every IP address out there receives truckloads of access attempts everyday, so I wouldn't feel too special about it. This is why we have routers and firewalls. Without them, you wouldn't get much use out of your computer, at all.

and the drive is taken out of access entirely (only the power on light remains on)?

Given that the traffic likely never reaches your Diskstation, there's no causal relationship between it and the power failure you're experiencing. The 'drive' going down is probably the server itself going into power saving mode. Perhaps it's set to do so with the 'Wake on Lan' option enabled, but this WoL option is notoriously unreliable as it depends on how the local network is configured to handle such wake-up requests. This would result in the Diskstation going to sleep and not be woken up, because the nudge to wake never reaches it. I'd recommend configuring your Diskstation to remain awake, but if you use mechanical hard drives (as opposed to SSD's), to have those spin down after a set period. This ensures your Diskstation remains approachable, but with the slight delay of the drives spinning up if they have gone to sleep.

Hope this helps in any way. And I hope you now understand why I'm somewhat skeptical about your claims that the problem is Diskstation-related. It really doesn't look that way to me.
 

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I think you're overthinking this. As you've already noted, the domestic router, by default, basically lets everything out and nothing in.

So the update service on the Synology sends a TCP/SYN to, say, Synology's update server. That sends a TCP/ACK back. The router checks that they pair up by referring to its little table of recent packets, and voila, a 2-way connection is established. Similarly, the time service contacts the default time provider, which establishes another connection. And so on, for all the little services the Synology is running. I don't know how Comcast builds its customer logs, but I imagine it simply matches the SYN/ACK packets up, so knows what service initiated the connection: if it says "Diskstation", it's because it logged the outgoing /SYN first.
 
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