Crown Graphic Lens: CLA or Replace?

Thepng · Oct 27, 2019

I'm new to large format and am starting out with a Crown Graphic with a Schneider 135 4.7. The synchro-compur shutter is starting to act up enough that it bugs me...the B speed sticks and I need to close it manually and of course slow shutter speed stick.

Does anyone know if there is a place that CLA's these lenses for less than it costs to replace? After brief googling, it looks like a CLA runs around $100 if possible, and you see these lenses in 'working condition' for sale for less than that. Is it worth it to CLA?

And if I was to replace it, what do you think the most future proof lens is? I'd like to keep the 135 focal length so I can use the range-finder, and a bit more coverage would be nice. It seems like a Fujinon or Nikkor is a bit more than 2X the cost of a standard Graflex type lens: is it worth the extra cash for serviceability and IQ?

Thanks!

Dan Fromm · Oct 27, 2019

There's a law of nature to the effect that all used shutters, with or without lenses, need to be overhauled. If you buy a used lens in shutters, you'll still be on the hook for a shutter CLA.

Lenses' actual focal lengths are rarely exactly the focal length engraved on the lens. That's why Graphics' rangefinders are adjustable. If you want a different 135 by all means get one, but understand that unless you're improbably lucky you'll have to recalibrate your Crown's RF for it.

Modern plasmat type lenses big advantage over tessar types like your Crown's Xenar is coverage. Since Graphics have minimal movements -- I have four, also a couple of Cambos. Don't you dare try to convince me that a Graphic will do what a view camera will do. -- plasmat types coverage is wasted on them.

btaylor · Oct 27, 2019

It depends on how you want to use the camera. It’s a press camera of course, not really intended to use movements and the bellows and lens boards are set up that way, plus you get the nifty rangefinder. The 135mm lens is perfect for everything the camera was designed to do.
The point of coverage it to be able to use view camera movements which the Crown really doesn’t have to any significant way. The front standard moves a little- that’s it. My thought would be to CLA the shutter and use the camera, find out if you like it. If you’re after view camera movements and the lenses that go with them, buy and use one.
I have a Super Graphic that I enjoy using. I like the rangefinder and sports finder a lot. But if I am looking for movements or using different lenses it is a lot easier and enjoyable to use a monorail which are ridiculously inexpensive these days.

AndyH · Oct 27, 2019

Compur shutters are relatively easy to do a CLA on, even for a relative newbie to camera repair. I've gotten several old ones into fairly accurate condition, with just a spanner, screwdrivers, rubber lens removal tool, solvents, and watchmaker's oil. I'd give it a shot myself, and the only money you'll be out would be the investment in these very basic (and inexpensive) tools, which should serve you for years. If it doesn't work out, you can always buy another mounted lens.

Andy

Sirius Glass · Oct 27, 2019

Unfortunately most used cameras sit for years unused and one should assume any used equipment will probably need a CLA. As mentioned above your camera is setup for your lens. You are best off getting the lens cleaned. You have two options"

Unscrew the lens from the shutter and lightly dust each side of the lens with graphite for locks. Fire the lens many many times in each shutter speed. Blow off the graphite and make sure it is clean and replace the lens in the shutter.
Send it off to Carol Flutot for a lens and shutter CLA [Clean Lubricate and Adjust]. http://flutotscamerarepair.com/

Bob S · Oct 27, 2019

Easiest is to send it to Tempe Camera for a CLA. A visit there should also show you some view cameras as well as how to use them.

AndyH · Oct 27, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
Unfortunately most used cameras sit for years unused and one should assume any used equipment will probably need a CLA. As mentioned above your camera is setup for your lens. You are best off getting the lens cleaned. You have two options"

Unscrew the lens from the shutter and lightly dust each side of the lens with graphite for locks. Fire the lens many many times in each shutter speed. Blow off the graphite and make sure it is clean and replace the lens in the shutter.

Send it off to Carol Flutot for a lens and shutter CLA [Clean Lubricate and Adjust]. http://flutotscamerarepair.com/

Sirius, have you successfully used this method? I've read that the graphite dust is very difficult to eliminate completely, and I've avoided it. I use naphtha and hydrogen peroxide as solvents (the latter is especially good for hardened lubricant IMHO), then used a watchmaker's oiler to place a drop of thin watchmaker's oil on the friction points. I've also used WD40, settled in a shot glass for a couple of days and then drawn off the top of the vessel with an eyedropper, as a thin lube. The estimable Chris Sherlock uses only solvents and watchmaker's oil.

Andy

StepheKoontz · Oct 27, 2019

I wasn't very impressed with that Schneider lens. I replaced mine on my super graphic with a 135mm WF ektar and it's worlds better. There are other small 135mm LF lenses that aren't "giant plasmats" but are a step up optically over that 135mm f4.7.

Thepng · Oct 27, 2019

Thanks for the replies everyone! I'm in Tucson so I'll check out Tempe Camera.

I've read some pretty intimidating things about diy shutter servicing... are there any good guides out there? I'm an engineer. but I have sausage fingers and shutters make me nervous!

Thepng · Oct 27, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
I wasn't very impressed with that Schneider lens. I replaced mine on my super graphic with a 135mm WF ektar and it's worlds better. There are other small 135mm LF lenses that aren't "giant plasmats" but are a step up optically over that 135mm f4.7.

Could you please give me your short list of these? I can't deny gear acquisition syndrome isn't in effect here, but budget is a consideration.

papagene · Oct 27, 2019

Thepng said:
Thanks for the replies everyone! I'm in Tucson so I'll check out Tempe Camera.

I've read some pretty intimidating things about diy shutter servicing... are there any good guides out there? I'm an engineer. but I have sausage fingers and shutters make me nervous!

If you are in Tucson, come to the Western Photographic Historical Society meetings, first Thursday evening of the month: https://www.wphsociety.org/events/
You can get many questions answered there, a lot of very knowledgeable people there.

Sirius Glass · Oct 27, 2019

AndyH52 said:
Sirius, have you successfully used this method? I've read that the graphite dust is very difficult to eliminate completely, and I've avoided it. I use naphtha and hydrogen peroxide as solvents (the latter is especially good for hardened lubricant IMHO), then used a watchmaker's oiler to place a drop of thin watchmaker's oil on the friction points. I've also used WD40, settled in a shot glass for a couple of days and then drawn off the top of the vessel with an eyedropper, as a thin lube. The estimable Chris Sherlock uses only solvents and watchmaker's oil.

Andy

When I brought my Pacemaker Speed Graphic and Graflex from Bert Sanders who was a retired Graphic and Graflex repairman sold the best cameras in his collection, told me to do that. One must keep the lenses away from the graphite dust so remember to use compressed air to blow away any graphite.

AndyH · Oct 28, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
When I brought my Pacemaker Speed Graphic and Graflex from Bert Sanders who was a retired Graphic and Graflex repairman sold the best cameras in his collection, told me to do that. One must keep the lenses away from the graphite dust so remember to use compressed air to blow away any graphite.

That's really good to know. I have an old Kodak Supermatic shutter that's been giving me fits, and I just can't seem to get the slow speeds close. I've cleaned it pretty well, but the slow speed escapement still isn't right. I was actually thinking of looking for a working shutter with bad glass, but this sounds like something I should try first.

Thanks!
Andy

BrianShaw · Oct 28, 2019

AndyH52 said:
That's really good to know. I have an old Kodak Supermatic shutter that's been giving me fits, and I just can't seem to get the slow speeds close. I've cleaned it pretty well, but the slow speed escapement still isn't right. I was actually thinking of looking for a working shutter with bad glass, but this sounds like something I should try first.

Thanks!
Andy

BEWARE... graphite dust is not a accepted best practice for any kind of clockwork mechanism.

... and it certainly won’t get your slow speed train adjusted!

If you really want a reliable shutter you’d be best served by having what you have serviced by an experienced repair shop. Invest now and it will probably run reliably for the next decade. This assumes that the shutter you have now is just gummed up and not broken.

StepheKoontz · Oct 28, 2019

Thepng said:
Thanks for the replies everyone! I'm in Tucson so I'll check out Tempe Camera.

I've read some pretty intimidating things about diy shutter servicing... are there any good guides out there? I'm an engineer. but I have sausage fingers and shutters make me nervous!

First, does it work correctly at the higher speeds? If the blades are snappy, no NOT put anything on them. They are designed to run dry!

If the low speeds are sluggish, the lube on the clockwork has dried up or thickened. Remove the glass and take the front cover off the shutter. You do NOT want to disassemble the clockwork stuff! Look for the part that "runs" at the slower speeds and use a toothpick to put a tiny bit of watch oil on the pivot/end of the shaft the gear or escapement spins on, and work it in. That's all I have ever had to do on most old shutters.

Stephe

AndyH · Oct 28, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
First, does it work correctly at the higher speeds? If the blades are snappy, no NOT put anything on them. They are designed to run dry!

If the low speeds are sluggish, the lube on the clockwork has dried up or thickened. Remove the glass and take the front cover off the shutter. You do NOT want to disassemble the clockwork stuff! Look for the part that "runs" at the slower speeds and use a toothpick to put a tiny bit of watch oil on the pivot/end of the shaft the gear or escapement spins on, and work it in. That's all I have ever had to do on most old shutters.

Stephe

I've fully disassembled and repaired Supermatics and other press/view camera shutters before. It's not as difficult as you may think, and the cleaning and lubrication generally takes care of most problems. I'm beginning to think that the slow speed escapement problem on the one mentioned above is more related to wear on the spring than on the gear train.

One bit of advice to anyone attempting a leaf shutter disassembly: Put your phone or digital camera on a tabletop tripod and video record your steps in the disassembly process as you go. In the early days, I remember taking Polaroids of various stages, but easy and instant video gives us the perfect tool to remind us of which piece goes where, and the stage that it should be reinstalled. I'm going to fuss with this one a bit more before I give up on it, but it's not worth paying a repair person for a CLA.

Andy

StepheKoontz · Oct 28, 2019

On replacements, a nikkor 135mm f5.6, Schneider Symmar, rodenstock sironar or the Caltar branded (which are either schneider/rodenstock depending on model) are solid choices for around $200. The Fuji is a nice lens with a larger image circle (which you don't need) but looks a bit larger and uses larger 67mm filters. The older Kodak WF Ektar I have has jumped in price ($500-600) and is in an old "supermatic" shutter, not the most reliable or easy to have serviced.

Some info, ignore the prices.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

Paul Howell · Oct 28, 2019

To piggyback on what Dan Forman said, Crowns and Speeds were sold with matched lens, when I replaced my 135mm Wollensak with a Zeiss 135 I lucked out as it matched the rangefinder, so not only do you need to buy a lens but likely will have to calibrate the rangefinder to match the replacement lens. The directions for calibrating the Graphic rangefinder can be found on line, otherwise you may have an additional cost. Or just use the ground glass to focus.

Sirius Glass · Oct 28, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
Unfortunately most used cameras sit for years unused and one should assume any used equipment will probably need a CLA. As mentioned above your camera is setup for your lens. You are best off getting the lens cleaned. You have two options"

Unscrew the lens from the shutter and lightly dust each side of the lens with graphite for locks. Fire the lens many many times in each shutter speed. Blow off the graphite and make sure it is clean and replace the lens in the shutter.

Send it off to Carol Flutot for a lens and shutter CLA [Clean Lubricate and Adjust]. http://flutotscamerarepair.com/

Sirius Glass said:
When I brought my Pacemaker Speed Graphic and Graflex from Bert Sanders who was a retired Graphic and Graflex repairman sold the best cameras in his collection, told me to do that. One must keep the lenses away from the graphite dust so remember to use compressed air to blow away any graphite.

This advice is ONLY for Graphic and Graflex shutters. I would not use it for other shutters.

John Koehrer · Oct 28, 2019

Interesting thing about graphite and fabric like shirts and jeans, once it's IN the fabric
it doesn't really want to be removed.

Removing the elements and front plate of the lens is no great task and you can get to all of the works
from the front. There was a link just yesterday that's VERY helpful and here it is:http://learncamerarepair.com

Arklatexian · Oct 28, 2019

Thepng said:
I'm new to large format and am starting out with a Crown Graphic with a Schneider 135 4.7. The synchro-compur shutter is starting to act up enough that it bugs me...the B speed sticks and I need to close it manually and of course slow shutter speed stick.

Does anyone know if there is a place that CLA's these lenses for less than it costs to replace? After brief googling, it looks like a CLA runs around $100 if possible, and you see these lenses in 'working condition' for sale for less than that. Is it worth it to CLA?

And if I was to replace it, what do you think the most future proof lens is? I'd like to keep the 135 focal length so I can use the range-finder, and a bit more coverage would be nice. It seems like a Fujinon or Nikkor is a bit more than 2X the cost of a standard Graflex type lens: is it worth the extra cash for serviceability and IQ?

Thanks!

Here is my thought after being in the same situation. I had mine overhauled. Probably cost me more than another lens. But! This lens now works like a new one and if I had bought another lens and it also needed a CLA or overhaul, I would then have two lenses that I could not use unless I had at least one of them fixed. It made sense to have the "bird in hand" overhauled. No regrets so far. I think the money was well spent. I now use my lens with "no doubts".............Regards!

Bob S · Oct 28, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
On replacements, a nikkor 135mm f5.6, Schneider Symmar, rodenstock sironar or the Caltar branded (which are either schneider/rodenstock depending on model) are solid choices for around $200. The Fuji is a nice lens with a larger image circle (which you don't need) but looks a bit larger and uses larger 67mm filters. The older Kodak WF Ektar I have has jumped in price ($500-600) and is in an old "supermatic" shutter, not the most reliable or easy to have serviced.

Some info, ignore the prices.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

Sironar, Sironar N, Sironar N MC, Apo Sironar, Apo Sironar N, Apo Sironar S or Apo Sironar W? I’m not mentioning the Apo Sironar Digitals.

some of the above were also sold as Caltars and Sinarons.

there is quite a difference between them in size and performance.

Schneider also had different flavors of Symmars.

Ian Grant · Oct 28, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
I wasn't very impressed with that Schneider lens. I replaced mine on my super graphic with a 135mm WF ektar and it's worlds better. There are other small 135mm LF lenses that aren't "giant plasmats" but are a step up optically over that 135mm f4.7.

I have a 135mm Caltar S-II which is a re-badged Symmar S, it's a only a tiny bit larger than the 135mm f4.7 Xenar but a far better lens in terms of coverage, it's my standard lens on my Super Graphic.

For around a year I used a pre-WWII 135mm f4.5 Tessar covearge was tight for 5x4 and it was only really sharp at f22, the 135mm f4.7 or f4.5 Xenar's aren't much better, I know I have an f4.7 version. The Tessar had the disadvantage of being uncoted but that's another story.

With care a 135mm Tessar or Xenar can produce excellent results on 5x4, however corner sharpness drops off by f16 although only just, wider it's more noticeable, a plasmat is far sharper.

I do use Tessar and type lenses, I have quite a few and love my 150mm T (coated) f4.5 CZJ Tessar and similar 150mm Xenar, but it's about knowing how to get the best from lenses and also what image quality you expect. The images I make with my Tessar/Xenar/Osaka (Congo) Commercial, Nikkor M lenses (all Tessar type) have to sit on exhibition walls alongside images made with moden MC Plasmats. Used well thay can.

In a round about way I'm agreeing, used well Xenar's and Tessra & type lenses can be excelelnt but as users we need to be aware of their failings.

Ian

StepheKoontz · Oct 28, 2019

Bob S said:
Sironar, Sironar N, Sironar N MC, Apo Sironar, Apo Sironar N, Apo Sironar S or Apo Sironar W?

there is quite a difference between them in size and performance.

At the price point they are looking at, it's likely only the older versions and I would hope they would do their own research I don't think you are going to find a Sironar S, W or digital for $200!

Bob S · Oct 28, 2019

You’re right, but since he is a beginner he should be aware of all the different versions. Then his research would be more helpful.

Crown Graphic Lens: CLA or Replace?

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