Crowdfunded darkroom timer

fiddle said:

Hm. I know is probably too early to ask for new features, but I just thought if the memories could be saved offline somehow, that would be pretty cool.. need to reprint something at a later time, dump the memory for that print back in, done. Times are set, burns etc..

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Funny, I was thinking something similar. The other thing I thought would be cool is if you could print out the settings and burn/dodge/map for a particular negative. It would be nice to have something more permanent for the inevitable day when that external hard drive or cloud storage provider is dead and gone

I’ll let the developer finish and deliver before throwing ideas.. lol
I’ve sent the developer a link to this post, I’m sure he will read through it and make decisions / updates based on it. He seemd very open to ideas when I spoke to him.

fiddle said:

I’ll let the developer finish and deliver before throwing ideas.. lol
I’ve sent the developer a link to this post, I’m sure he will read through it and make decisions / updates based on it. He seemd very open to ideas when I spoke to him.

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I have the exact same impression of him.

fiddle said:

I wish Tran. I have researched some of the diy timers online, and although I have built a few raspberry pi projects myself and have some hardware and coding knowledge, the lack of time to learn new stuff outside of work hinders me from tackling a new project.

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Fully understood! Whatever I built is based on my knowledge and based on what I have available. If I were to buy the parts it would cost several thousands.

Hello everyone!

First of all a huge thanks to every single one of you for taking a moment of your time to at least drop a comment. So far I've read all of them and I'll try to reply all your questions, starting from the last because it's easier for me to scroll up at this point .

Offline Data Saving:

Someone just asked the same question in an e-mail so I'll just copy paste my reply here.

At the moment all the memory channels automatically save the last used settings so you can recall those the next time. I've been thinking of giving it an even deeper memory function and there are a few options that I've been considering.

One is to add a pen and paper kit to the set free of charge. Just kidding of course . Or am I?

The first idea I've had was to add an optional Wifi module to transfer and create printing recipes to and from a smartphone and/or a PC. While this option is still not off the table, it has a few issues. First of all, a Wifi or Bluetooth antenna would require a lot of extra certification, which would probably cost too much to be financially feasible. Maybe I'll still offer such a module in the future but right now, this is not my primary focus as it would also require constant software updates for various phone OS systems, something I'm not willing to deal with at this point. But who knows, maybe I'll change my mind.

The second idea was another add-on module but this time with an SD card reader. I will most likely leave a yet-unadvertised extension socket somewhere on the control unit to add such a module (and you are the first to learn about this outside the development and testing team by the way). This may also come in handy for firmware updates as not everyone might have a working computer near their workspace, even though MAYA is quite compact and easily movable to a nearby computer. This would also let me work with common file formats such as spreadsheets and plain text documents, which are much easier to support. All in all, this is a good option.

Another idea that came to my mind two weeks ago is to use NFC. I believe it doesn't require the extended FCC/CE and other certifications unlike a Wifi and Bluetooth module and most smartphones already support NFC. And it also opens up further possibilities such as using very cheaply available NFC sticker tags to save and recall print settings. This might be a fun and clever option since you can stick those tags behind your prints or frames, scan them when necessary to recall the settings and maybe even pop up some copyright information.

The fourth idea is just like the SD card module but it uses old 3.5" floppy disk drives instead of SD card readers. This is an alternative idea we have for April 1st. Please don't spoil it .

The fifth idea is the option to use QR codes on the main LCD if I decide to use a 128x64 pixel graphic LCD instead of the current 20x04 character LCD.

I'll use a portion of the raised funding and promised timeframe to experiment with all these ideas and share the results. Also I'm open to all ideas and suggestions.

Welcome.
Instead of an SD card reader, how about a USB connection that you could use to plug in a flash drive.
And the ability to store the data in a text file.

The issue with the 2:30 video being absurdly produced, too fast and not very informative:

You are wrong for saying I've done this to show off my editing skills since I don't actually have any of those, as you've already seen from the video . Geniunely though, sorry to hear that you found it to be offensively useless (no hard feelings on my side). I've ended up doing all the video production myself and my excuses are

1) I haven't done something of this scale before so even though I've tried my best, I know it's not up to the professional standards.
2) Fully knowing that it'd be impossible to demonstrate all the features I have on this device, a 2-3 minute ukulele soundtracked cheer up type introduction video wouldn't be the best place to discuss such things. That's why I have:

a) Tried to keep it at least interesting and promising enough to encourage people to check out the other videos.
b) Shot and uploaded four print-through videos with the device in use (which still turned out to be too fast for most people, my bad).
c) Uploaded a 20 minute long overview video going through most functions and the thoughts behind them.
d) Will be shooting another video tomorrow, an even slower and clearer one, concentrating on how to change settings and navigate between them.
e) Used a bass soundtrack instead of the usual ukulele but that's irrelevant.

In the meantime, here is a link to the previous videos. Those could've been much slower as well but then they'd end up being 30 minute videos to make a single print and nobody would've watched that.

Different people have different levels of tolerance and it's only natural that some of you may have found all these videos unenjoyable. Sorry if I have offended anyone with them, will try better the next time and in the end, a very big thank you to those who have been critical as this is how I know that I have to improve myself.

MattKing said:

Welcome.
Instead of an SD card reader, how about a USB connection that you could use to plug in a flash drive.
And the ability to store the data in a text file.

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Not sure this can be done with the hardware I'm using. I will definitely investigate as this seems like quite a good option. There already is a USB port for firmware updates but that probably won't physically accept any of the available flash drives without a very obscure cable. So maybe I can add another USB port and that'll solve everything?

Thanks for this great idea!

Spot Analyser Option:

Will start working on that as early as tomorrow. Since all it is is basically a light sensor and some lines of code, I'm hoping to offer this relatively cheaply as an accessory. I will also open a thread asking for your ideas, workflow and opinions regarding using zone analysers as I have very limited experience with those.

In addition, working with a light sensor will also let me experiment with some other add-ons and future projects such as a compensating head probe for cold light heads (add-on), a shutter speed tester (add-on) and a compact hot shoe light meter (future project).

Wet Fingers / IP Class:

This is much harder to tackle. On one hand, some people will never go near their enlarger/timer/paper with wet or even damp hands. On the other hand, some will. Those would obviously prefer a high IP class (aka splash proof or better) product. However, this would've increased my development and production costs for everybody and I think the final result should be a compromise somewhere in the middle. I will be experimenting with different buttons and faceplates during the development phase to find such a point.

The good news is, all the mains voltage is confined within the power bars while the control unit only has 5V inside so even if you manage to spill your developer on the device itself, the chances of a catastrophic failure is relatively low. This was one of the reasons why the power module is separate from the control module, that way you can keep all your high voltage sockets and plugs away from all the danger, tucked away somewhere or maybe even mounted on a wall.

Witold said:

I'm not offended, the video is NOT absurdly produced, you should have worded it differently perhaps, but are entitled to own opinion. But calling it that is a bit far out there, that is all IMHO.

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I have now noticed the other videos, apologies to everyone.
I'll be watching this with keen interest...

bernard_L said:

Hmmm... Collecting money, more-or-less (with the restrictions of crowdfunding) promising products, and yet (my emphasis):
"We are already deep into our prototyping phase. Most of the coding has been done, interface has been designed, so apart from the finishing touches here and there, we need to find a supplier for the PCBs, various parts and the casing. Of course, the final physical form of everything can only be determined after we have a good number of how many units we'll have to make."
So they don't have a working prototype, they don't have quotes from suppliers (because they don't have a design), and they "advertise" products and prices (yes, I know, read the fine print of crowdfunding rules).

IMO, the proper way to do this would be to build, test and finalize a prototype. Then, on the basis of a certain production quantity, secure quotations for supplies. Then launch a kickstarter campaign with that quantity as minimum goal, and the production cost as a basis for contributions. Any backers above the minimum number allow the promoters to reap the cost benefits of quantity production. Not even mentioning a pre-production run to weed out certain issues.

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There is a prototype built, as seen in all the videos, animated gifs and photos (The White Edition and all the images you see with a brushed aluminium faceplate are computer generated so far). We also have quotations for all the parts. The minimum goal was set as the number of units we'd bother making with and that number was 20 and we are way past that so far. That means we'll have a much healthier development phase with many prototypes ordered, some upgraded parts and production methods.

For example an aluminium extruded casing is cheaper than a laser cut, custom made, folded to shape by hand metal sheet casing. However, this only happens if you place an order of 500 units for the aluminium version while you can get the metal sheet version individually. We have a detailed cost analysis for quite a few scenarios such as this and will choose the best (for everyone) depending on the support and funding we receive during this campaign.

There will be multiple pre-production runs but those will be mostly internal. However, as the support for this product grows, there might be a Beta Tester Edition coming up. More information will be shared if that ever happens (I hope it does).

obican said:

There is a prototype built, as seen in all the videos, animated gifs and photos (The White Edition and all the images you see with a brushed aluminium faceplate are computer generated so far). We also have quotations for all the parts. The minimum goal was set as the number of units we'd bother making with and that number was 20 and we are way past that so far. That means we'll have a much healthier development phase with many prototypes ordered, some upgraded parts and production methods.

For example an aluminium extruded casing is cheaper than a laser cut, custom made, folded to shape by hand metal sheet casing. However, this only happens if you place an order of 500 units for the aluminium version while you can get the metal sheet version individually. We have a detailed cost analysis for quite a few scenarios such as this and will choose the best (for everyone) depending on the support and funding we receive during this campaign.

There will be multiple pre-production runs but those will be mostly internal. However, as the support for this product grows, there might be a Beta Tester Edition coming up. More information will be shared if that ever happens (I hope it does).

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Keep up the positive input, might just help us all get this to a far higher quality level in not only internals ,but external cosmetics as well. People had been burnt by crowdfunding before, so some negativity is expected, but I know you already knew that.

Mine can be built inside a cardboard box as long as it works well.....

Love the idea of the simple white but funds only allow me to back the basic model at this time. Can we add a power strip and remote after the shipping date?

Would have the funds by the end of the campaign, but not sure if I would be able to get in on the white with remote as hopefully the 10 will be gone by the .

Thanks

One last message before going to bed:

I understand all your concerns regarding crowdfunding campaigns, especially there has been quite a few photography related scams in the last year alone.

The reason I've released as many videos, gifs, charts and text as possible was to clearly demonstrate that I have a well thought out, working prototype. I've started working on this project to replace my own -dead- darkroom timer. There's an article on Emulsive.org where I've discussed the process so far. As I've said, most of the work is already done since I started building this for myself and all I need to do is refine the code, order the electronics, finalize the casing and build them together(along with a few refinement steps for each of these of course). Being an unknown creator, I had to bring this whole project to this level before publicly asking for funds. There was no way people are going to believe me if I had pulled the equivalent of claiming to be the classic rangefinder revival with awesome visuals and cool sounding concepts with no working prototype since this is a highly technical product. It simply doesn't translate, you have to see as much as you can and you need to see things in action.

I know there are many people who are saying this is too complicated (compared to a simple mechanical clock, it is), not worth it (not everyone wants f-stop modes and dodge/burn maps and memory channels) or simply untrustable (why is this not even on Kickstarter???? -because can't launch a Kickstarter from where I live ).

The thing is, all I need is a handful of backers (which I already have, thank you everyone who got involved!) to realize my pet project as succesfuly release it into the market. This will be just a start, then there will be other projects to work on (LED multigrade enlarger is the next) and if you like the product but can't trust a crowdfunding campaign, you'll be able to buy this directly by then with none of the risks involved.

Many thanks to everyone once again. I'm off to bed after answering the last questions for now. Please don't hesitate to contact me with any criticisms, ideas, questions, whatever.

Hope I haven't made a fool of myself as I've been getting more and more sleepy with each sentence .

Best regards,
Can

David L59 said:

Love the idea of the simple white but funds only allow me to back the basic model at this time. Can we add a power strip and remote after the shipping date?

Would have the funds by the end of the campaign, but not sure if I would be able to get in on the white with remote as hopefully the 10 will be gone by the .

Thanks

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Sure, those will be available individually. Didn't want to keep the page cluttered with all the accessories and variations, making everything even more complicated.

Appreciate the time Can.
Thank you

Hi Cen,

for me the most importan point:

For people doing colour enlargements it would be important that all lights (including the powerbrick) can be switched off. Otherwise it'd be a no go for me. In my case, the display and button lights should go off and a colour sequence starts, controlled by the remote. First trigger runs the enlarger and then two consecutive 50s countdowns, terminated by a beep. After that the display and other lights can come on again. If you think that can be done I'll order one, too.

Other thoughts:

WiFi and Bluetooth (LE) can be had without certification problems by using a certified integrated module, which has the antenna included. I bought three Espressif ESP32 kits. The SoC with antenna is a small module, which is SMD soldered onto the, not very large either, mother PCB like a chip. The thing is that this SoC could run the entire device instead of being used as a wireless interface only. Which microcontroller are you using?

If the White Edition would need to be more water proof for film development the buttons and dials could be replaced by capacitive touch elements. Buttons are obvious, the dials can be replaced by a circle along which one runs the finger to dial up and down. I know Atmel has lots of MCs which can interface that directly, but I'd expect interface chips for everyone else to be available. That way the front plate could be one piece without openings.

Since this thing is like a christmas tree, compared to my current timer, I think it is important that deep/hyper red LEDs are being used. And not too bright. Is the display lit by external LED or are they build in?

Oh, and the for the power brick/strip it would be nice if the 230V sockets had a larger spacing. Some plugs and power supplies take a lot of space.

Regarding Color Printing:

The current situation: There is a color mode in the contrast settings (where you select and display the contrast grade on the left). When you select Color from that menu, all lights will be turned off after you press the expose button and until you press it again, you'll be in complete darkness. The second press is what starts the countdown. There is most likely to be some quiet beeps during the dark phase to remind you where the device is and guide you through the sound (can be turned off of course). After the countdown, everything will remain darkened until you press a button.

The planned development: Admittedly, I have no color printing experience but I still have some concerns that the simple method I've discussed above is the best way to go. Maybe you'll want to have more channels for the color mode, or maybe dodge and burn functions should be handled slightly differently. I really am open to all suggestions here but I've decided to add a separate color printing mode to the timer itself. That way you'll be taken to a whole different user interface, curated specifically for color printing so you won't feel like a stepchild to the black and white printers.

Will open a forum thread in the future, asking for more help for developing the color mode and remember, we can add and change almost anything with a firmware update later on .

lantau said:

Hi Cen,

for me the most importan point:

For people doing colour enlargements it would be important that all lights (including the powerbrick) can be switched off. Otherwise it'd be a no go for me. In my case, the display and button lights should go off and a colour sequence starts, controlled by the remote. First trigger runs the enlarger and then two consecutive 50s countdowns, terminated by a beep. After that the display and other lights can come on again. If you think that can be done I'll order one, too.

Other thoughts:

WiFi and Bluetooth (LE) can be had without certification problems by using a certified integrated module, which has the antenna included. I bought three Espressif ESP32 kits. The SoC with antenna is a small module, which is SMD soldered onto the, not very large either, mother PCB like a chip. The thing is that this SoC could run the entire device instead of being used as a wireless interface only. Which microcontroller are you using?

If the White Edition would need to be more water proof for film development the buttons and dials could be replaced by capacitive touch elements. Buttons are obvious, the dials can be replaced by a circle along which one runs the finger to dial up and down. I know Atmel has lots of MCs which can interface that directly, but I'd expect interface chips for everyone else to be available. That way the front plate could be one piece without openings.

Since this thing is like a christmas tree, compared to my current timer, I think it is important that deep/hyper red LEDs are being used. And not too bright. Is the display lit by external LED or are they build in?

Oh, and the for the power brick/strip it would be nice if the 230V sockets had a larger spacing. Some plugs and power supplies take a lot of space.

Click to expand...

Hey,

I've read about using pre-certified WiFi/Bluetooth modules and that's what's keeping the option still on the table. There'll still be the other issues that I've mentioned though, imagine iPhone XIIVs not supporting my 7 year old app by then. More trouble for everyone. But still, maybe I can develop a web interface for all those tasks that you can use instead of an app? We will see.

I'm looking into capacitive touch elements for both versions. That would also open a lot other possibilities for the interface, such as hovering your finger above a button to see what it does, checking out what's in each memory channel without pressing them (hover your finger and there'll be a preview) and so on. Didn't want to promise anything from the start but if I'm happy with the prototypes, that's a feature that is very liklely to make it into production. Especially since it doesn't seem to drive the costs up too much. I've also done some variations with completely sealed face plates (one of them is actually still in the project overview, towards the bottom) and will revisit and test a few of those during the development. One huge downside is that you wouldn't be able to navigate by feel in complete darkness without touching where the buttons are, which might ruin it for color printing. There should be a compromise somewhere in between, maybe physical buttons to start the countdown and touch interface for everything else?

There is a 6mm thick deep red acrylic filter on top of all the red LEDs and the screen. My tests so far show that it's safer than my Kaiser safelight even with direct paper contact. The brightness and contrast are also all adjustable.

Thanks for mentioning the spacing issue. Since I'll be using standard modular power sockets (the kind that gets mounted on aluminium power rails and extension cords), the spacing should be rather easy for me to adjust.

Right now the prototype is based on an Arduino Mega 2560 board. That gave me a lot of inputs/outputs to work with and I can be quite flexible with adding other features. I could save some money by going back to a ATmega328 (I still might for the White Edition but that's another discussion) but I'm most likely to keep the lovely 2560 in. All the unused digital and analog inputs will be grouped somewhere on the board so anyone can use them for their ideas, if the project goes truly open source.

Thanks for all your comments and thoughts. The best part of having a crowdfunding campaign is that you can develop your product while being in direct contact with your potential customers .

Obican, why do not just post a table listing the features of your device?

You mean like this?

From the moment I saw this device I liked pretty much everything, from overall design to feature and clear attention to detail, all makes sense as we are looking at a rather significant individual investment to support this. I have full confidence that Can has a good and clear grasp of requirements and foresight to make this not only good at inception but also geared for future expansion.

BW and Color ought to be kept in separate channels ( as is apparently intended) and the operational mode should be clearly indicated at all times, so it is either a symbol of sorts displayed permanently whether we have it in BW or Color, or by perhaps a less elegant hard switch. Only from that features ought to expand into all available options.

obican said:

...
The reason I've released as many videos, gifs, charts and text as possible was to clearly demonstrate that I have a well thought out, working prototype. I've started working on this project to replace my own -dead- darkroom timer. There's an article on Emulsive.org where I've discussed the process so far. As I've said, most of the work is already done since I started building this for myself and all I need to do is refine the code, order the electronics, finalize the casing and build them together(along with a few refinement steps for each of these of course). Being an unknown creator, I had to bring this whole project to this level before publicly asking for funds. There was no way people are going to believe me if I had pulled the equivalent of claiming to be the classic rangefinder revival with awesome visuals and cool sounding concepts with no working prototype since this is a highly technical product. It simply doesn't translate, you have to see as much as you can and you need to see things in action.

...
Best regards,
Can

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This is exactly what sold me on this. I'd already mentioned a moronic project that had nothing to show and asked for $400k on kickstarter. No comparison between that and what you have shown here already.