Creating a new color 35mm film, what would it take?

wtburton · Dec 7, 2021

this question is sure to get all sorts of people discussing.

From what I know about B&W plate making from the many people I have talked too, getting above 5iso is a good day, 20iso a miracle, and somehow reaching 100iso is on the verge of impossibility. At that point its something that really needs a machine.

I am highly skeptical of Lomography and their new films. I dont think they actually own a film production plant, but have some secret deal with fuji. I know for a fact all they do to get their special effects is switch around the dye couplers a bit.

Okay so how would someone even hypothetically go about making a new color film? Like the traditional way?

I have been studying holography recently, and I learned of photopolymer film. It self develops itself! All it needs is an exposure, and then intense light. With the materials currently available, you could make Lippmann photographs in a regular 35mm camera. If someone else was into Thin Film Deposition and could deposit an alloy of gallium-bismuth that would melt off at around 110-120F , then the ISO would be doubled and the resulting Lippmann would be super colorful.

Though Lippmann is quite low iso, I bet a high iso photopolymer film in 35mm would be crazy. I think Big Film hasn't done this because they would loose the developing market. Photopolymer is way more costly though, but I assume thats more due to its highly specialized use case currently. What do you think?

Cholentpot · Dec 7, 2021

I read that Lomo is using InovisCoat for their films. Take it for what it's worth.

wtburton · Dec 7, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I read that Lomo is using InovisCoat for their films. Take it for what it's worth.

Ah yeah that makes more sense. I really have no clue who they used I just figured they got someone else to do it since they are so secretive

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2021

Another product need.
A market.

Paul Howell · Dec 7, 2021

I think Big Film hasn't done this because they would loose the developing market.

Fuji still makes and supports it's line of mini lab, on the other hand Kodak sold it color paper coating business, if there was market they might look into it, development costs may be just to high. And in the 80s to maybe early 90s, Polaroid made a self developing 35mm slide film, black and white and color, had a specialized device to process the film. I was given a set by my wife, I shot a few rolls, really liked the black and white, sadly the slides are fading. Polaroid terminated the product line long before digital killed the company. I don't know if the current Polaroid folks (Impossible Film) got the rights the to 35mm process.

wtburton · Dec 7, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Another product need.
A market.

sounds like there is one when Ektachrome is $40 a roll, Fuji ceases all film production.

BrianShaw · Dec 7, 2021

Is there still a company, or even industry, that can legitimately be called “Big Film” anymore?

wtburton · Dec 7, 2021

Paul Howell said:
I think Big Film hasn't done this because they would loose the developing market.

Fuji still makes and supports it's line of mini lab, on the other hand Kodak sold it color paper coating business, if there was market they might look into it, development costs may be just to high. And in the 80s to maybe early 90s, Polaroid made a self developing 35mm slide film, black and white and color, had a specialized device to process the film. I was given a set by my wife, I shot a few rolls, really liked the black and white, sadly the slides are fading. Polaroid terminated the product line long before digital killed the company. I don't know if the current Polaroid folks (Impossible Film) got the rights the to 35mm process.

Yeah I have heard of the self developing polaroid's, tried it once (pack was dried up) and never again. I think maybe they can be developed in regular black and white but I haven't bothered to try it. For the color film at least, its just a color screen on a B&W emulsion. I think with today's tech you could make color screens like that pretty easily if you had someone that knew what they were doing.

What im talking about dosent even require a developing machine. Once its been exposed well it stops, and then when exposed to bright lamp (like in most old reversal processes) it develops out.

BrianShaw · Dec 7, 2021

Can that concept be prototyped by a mere mortal?

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2021

warrebphoto said:
sounds like there is one when Ektachrome is $40 a roll, Fuji ceases all film production.

Unless the demand goes up. Someone needs to increase the demand. Why not start here?

wtburton · Dec 7, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Unless the demand goes up. Someone needs to increase the demand. Why not start here?

Im pretty sure more than just retro junkies would like to take pictures on this stuff. Lippmann photography is *the* best color recording medium to exist today. It literally copies the wavelength of the real object directly. Im pretty sure everyone would be shooting on this stuff if they had access to it. It can copy so accurate of an image of reality that not even your computer screen can display fully.

BrianShaw said:
Can that concept be prototyped by a mere mortal?

it already exists and you can buy it too. Its only been used in what we would consider large format. Unfortunately nobody has bothered to cut and pref to 35mm. It would probably need some sort of substrate (not sure if its included)

my idea: you would expose it substrate first. I am not particularly sure how fragile the photopolymer is. If it can stand normal film development temp, then you should be able to melt off the alloy reflector. The reflector is not needed to make Lippmann photographs, but it would increase the speed a lot.

https://www.geola.com/product/photopolymer/

markjwyatt · Dec 8, 2021

| sheet-film/plate Lens R-filter

| sheet-film/plate Lens G-filter

| sheet-film/plate Lens B-filter

Develop direct positive; project through filters.

film_man · Dec 8, 2021

I'm not sure I follow what the original question is. Is it to create just another C41/E6 film? Or to do something radically different.

If you want to do just another colour C41 film have a look at the disaster that the Ferrania Kickstarter was. They had the building, the machinery, $350k and 7 years later they just do some small scale B&W stuff.

MattKing · Dec 8, 2021

Thread moved to the Color Film sub-forum because, well, it is about colour film...

quiver · Dec 9, 2021

So I have a couple of questions.

Are Lippman color images able to be projected? I wouldn't think so because of the physics of the image.
Can a Lippman image be scanned as a color image?

One other thing is will the processing spec be open? I don't think anyone here has any desire for another Kodachrome process.

You also have a couple of product lines that should be explored as steps to producing the ultimate color film. A zero chemical black and white or reversal process would give plenty of people a reason to use a film camera. A processing box is another product. Another thing to consider from a marketing standpoint is that any photographic materials made using this technology uses to the best of my knowledge no animal components so would be vegan. While I have no care about that either way and admit to a certain amount of apathy or dislike regarding vegans it would be a worthwhile marketing angle.

35mm film would be the money making format, but I would love to have this color process for medium format including 127.

It sounds like you can already get this photopolymer film in bulk rolls so you would requiring confectioning to convert to 35mm for a basic black and white film. It really sounds like you're shopping for a partner to prototype a product to then start a kickstarter for. I'm not that partner, but certainly hope you can find that partner.

AgX · Dec 9, 2021

quiver said:
Are Lippman color images able to be projected? I wouldn't think so because of the physics of the image.

Of course they can be projected, as one can see them.... What is so special with our eyes?
Take an episcope.

benjiboy · Dec 9, 2021

Once you have created a colour 35mm film you have to find a market for it to sell it in sufficient quantities to make it viable.

gone · Dec 9, 2021

I generally would go the other way. First, see if there's a market for the product. Focus groups, direct mail, phone interviews, in person visits to the appropriate places, "mystery shopping"...... there are a million ways to get the right data before jumping into producing a product for which there may or may not be an existing market for. The more data, and the better the data, the more likelihood of success, assuming that all the production/distribution/supply issues can be resolved.

Unless old equipment could be revived for new film production, the cost and attendant risk of start up and trying to survive the competition from all the existing color films would seemingly doom this to failure.

quiver · Dec 9, 2021

AgX said:
Of course they can be projected, as one can see them.... What is so special with our eyes?
Take an episcope.

Well as a Lippman is an exact recording of every wavelength of light at the time the image was recorded I was figuring any distortion to that image would break the color information. I've never met a Lippman image in person so I don't know if it could be projected or not.

Why so sarcastic and hostile?

AgX · Dec 9, 2021

I was not meaning to be hostile.

But I just did not and still do not understand what you are referring to. Thus again my question: what is the difference between a human eye and a projector? The major difference is that the projector got the light source incorporated. But I do not see to what extent this should matter. At worst the lighting angle must be optimized.

quiver · Dec 9, 2021

It would seem that the information on the process at https://www.alternativephotography.com/lippmann-colour-photography/
Would seem to indicate that viewing is reflective. So the question about if this proposed film could be projected.

AgX · Dec 9, 2021

I already answered this question.

quiver · Dec 9, 2021

So you have. I was merely clarifying why I was asking. Though I would appreciate some response from the OP of this thread.

AgX · Dec 10, 2021

warrebphoto said:
I have been studying holography recently, and I learned of photopolymer film. It self develops itself! All it needs is an exposure, and then intense light.

Photopolymerisation films, self-developing or to be developed, need an imaging exposure with strong light. Either with a Laser or with UV-light. Thus they are hardly applicable for taking a photograph.

However, to divide imaging exposure from polymerisation exposure is the way to go indeed.

Creating a new color 35mm film, what would it take?

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