Crazy Concept: Dig Pre shot 4 FILM B&W visualization?

Discussion in 'Misc. Hybrid Discussions' started by peter k., Aug 19, 2017.

  1. peter k.

    peter k. Subscriber

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    Moderator; If this is in wrong spot kick me out, it has to do with a concept of how to better my analog B&W image taking, and couldn't really see it in Hybrid, despite the red warning notice.. which we give two thumbs up, but want analog participation, and couldn't decide where to put it, soooo we leave it to you. :redface:

    Is there anyone who uses a D camera to pre visualize thier B&W shots before shooting with their film camera?
    The reason I ask is, I've missed numerous shots with MF and 4x5 LF, because of my errors, and could only discover it after developing. I have an old purple something or other that I have tried in the past, but it never really worked for me in seeing the B&W tone difference in landscape shots. .
    Perhaps I'm looking for a magic bullet that doesn't exist, but wondered if others have had success with this concept!

    Background:
    My brother in law gave to me over two years ago, a Nikon D90 for some volunteer work in Texas, that needed quick jpg images to post on e-mail. Haven't used or thought about it since and its been collecting dust. But this change over to PHOTRIO got me thinking if we could use it to 'pre visualize' some shots in B&W, when using different filters in circumstances that in the past I have not exposed properly, or perhaps used the wrong filter for, in a particular shot and did not get the image of what we were trying to achieve.
    So we dug the D90 out, and it found it will take my four non auto Nikon 35mm lenses, and learned out how to shoot it in B&W manually, adjusting the ISO for the speed where shooting in the film where using, and how to adjust the shutter ect. We tried it out, and where surprised and it looks like it could have possibilities in giving me clarity on my different filters and there response, but the question remains will it just be a PIA. Of course one has to try it out in the field to find out, but wondered if anyone else has tried it and likes it.
    Thanks for any responses..
     
  2. Bill Burk

    Bill Burk Subscriber

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    Now we are Photrio, maybe moderators have a tool to move a thread... I'd vote for Hybrid since you're using digital for part of your workflow.

    Since you're a subscriber you can see the galleries...

    I did a digital previsualization here, and it very nearly cost me the shot. Fortunately the parade circled twice.

    Fiddling with a digital gadget can cost you a shot because before you know it the photograph you wanted to take could pass you by.

    https://www.photrio.com/forum/index.php?media/soccer-parade.34923/#media

    I felt guilty doing it in the first place and tend not to try to previsualize with a digital camera ever since this. I'd rather have the camera ready for the real shot.
     
  3. OP
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    peter k.

    peter k. Subscriber

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    Yes, you hit the nail on the head, the feeling of guilt, but this is referring to landscape and soooo... but to do set up with one and then to other.. hmmm .. that's why I'm asking.. the reality of others trying it.
     
  4. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    It can get you close, but digital sensor color response is different than b+w. Your tones may not match up as you want without a lot of testing first. Take a shot with both and compare the resulting print with the digital file. See if the digital camera rendered the scene like the printed results.
     
  5. esearing

    esearing Member

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    Smart phone or small tablet with a camera for composition - there are many apps that help convert to B&W and some show you zone placement or metering. Doesn't work very well for low light since the camera will usually compensate. You can also alter your image to see how it would look toned or printed with more/less contrast before you start working in the darkroom. Also makes a great scouting and recording tool.
     
  6. OP
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    peter k.

    peter k. Subscriber

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    Yeah that's what will have to be done, if we want to go here... but.... hmmm .. but... next..
    No smart phone or tablet.. :happy:
     
  7. Truzi

    Truzi Member

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    I really don't know how well the idea would work, but it's worth a try.

    I really don't want to get into the analog v digital debate.
    However, your proposal seems to have as much impact on the final analog image as a Polaroid pre-check, and few freak out about using a smart-phone light meter app. In this respect I'd think the Analog forum should be appropriate.
     
  8. OP
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    peter k.

    peter k. Subscriber

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    Yes.. never did it, but that's what I would like a Polaroid pre-check..
    When we tried it at the house, used my light meter, and set accordingly to that, metering the scene as I would for film.
     
  9. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. You do not need no stinking digital camera.
     
  10. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    +1

    The best 'device' to previsualize a scene is the human eye. You don't need to drag along another camera
     
  11. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

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    I created a new misc. hybrid forum and moved it here. Thanks
     
  12. jvo

    jvo Subscriber

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    if i was getting paid, (wedding, one-time event, etc.) i'd use every technological tool i could get my hands on.

    since i do film i've learned that it's my experience, judgement, and intuition that will get the shot - or not. there's always a surprise - sometimes a happy one, sometimes not. it what's what makes film fun for me.:sideways: i'd like to sell more prints than i do, but i enjoy the pictures i make.
     
  13. winger

    winger Subscriber

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    I've been shooting B&W for a decently long time and usually have a pretty good idea what I'm going to get (i.e.. experience is your friend). BUT I do sometimes take a shot with my iPhone and turn it into B&W to see if there are glaring reasons to not do a shot I think I like with 4x5. If I'm out hiking with my son, I have to be pretty well convinced the shot will be worth it before I go through the time of setting up the 4x5 with a perpetually bored 7-year-old in my charge.

    I don't use the phone to try to see how filters will work and I do far more with composition in the camera than on the phone. But it's definitely another tool and it's fast to get out and shoot (cargo pants and always close at hand).
     
  14. Mick Fagan

    Mick Fagan Subscriber

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    Like Winger, I too have been shooting B&W for a long time and have a pretty good handle on what will end up on the B&W negative, however...

    We sometimes go on camping holidays for around three months, shooting 4x5" B&W is great, but there is a logistical situation where everything you have, including your bedroom, living room and kitchen, as well as all storage is all contained in a 4m long slide-on camper. The amount of film I can carry and keep refrigerated is finite in a 90 litre refrigerator. Shots then are reasonably precious and if there is any wonder, I have asked my wife to take a B&W picture with her small point and shoot electronic camera.

    The results are usually a reasonable facsimile of what I will get, but they are not the same. They do however give one an idea about shadows and any glaring light streaks that are not so apparent when in brilliant sunshine stuck in a deep sided gorge.

    It is a tool and worth using when it could or should be beneficial, but I wouldn't suggest you do it for most of your photography.

    Attached is a picture that did get help from my wife's electronic camera. We were walking around inside and outside the Symphony Orchestra building in downtown Reykjavik. I knew what I wanted to shoot, I knew what I wanted to get, but I was having difficulty visualising what light refractions through glass I may end up with. I checked a few B&W images from the back of the business card sized viewer of my wife's camera, then knew what I was going to do. The only major difference was that I had access to a wider angle than she did, but I knew enough to compensate and so went ahead taking two exposures, one of which is here.

    Sigma 24mm at f/8. Neopan 400

    17002738_Iceland_2017_Reykjavik_Symphony_Orchestra_Building_Internal_002_web_small.jpg


    Another note, there are times where pre-visualising doesn't work too well, more so if the camera you are using to pre-visualise doesn't have the same view through it's lens or lenses.

    The next image is one, where having access to my wife's electronic camera, didn't help too much, almost a hindrance in fact.

    This was taken with a 4x5" camera with a 65mm lens, which is far wider than what my wife's camera can emulate. The tripod was in deep sand and I was hard up against a sand dune covered in vegetation, nonetheless I am certainly happy with my results, as was my wife as this was better than what she could get with her fixed zoom lens camera.

    Ilford FP4+

    4x5_FP4_Fujinon_65mm_Centre_Filter_Shen_Hao_Kilcunda_Bridge_005_Web.jpg

    In short, sometimes what you are thinking of doing, certainly helps. I suggest you do this sparingly, otherwise you will be caught between two cameras and two ways of wasting time.

    Mick.
     
  15. OP
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    peter k.

    peter k. Subscriber

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    Yes, that's what I love about film, its not instant gratification!!!
    That's exactly where we do not want to arrive at, sooo as ...
    Yes,... you have to try and try again, and we have on a couple of shots that I've not been able to capture, and basically gave up on them. Dark shadow shots, with sparkling diffused and direct light, in different background foliage. One on Oak creek, another tall cathedral like dry wash area contained by huge cottonwood trees, with dancing light in leaves and in the wash rubble and vegetation.
    So thanking you for all your replies, and not really wanting to change my shooting routine much, were going to try these two 'failed' areas with this new method and give it a try, and see if it makes the day. If it does great, if not, ah well will practice some more and maybe this new effort will pierce the image to the core, but most likely will only try this method sparingly, as we want to just focus on one medium, Film!
    ~~~~
    By the way Mick, great shots.
     
  16. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    exactly !

    use your digital like you would have used a polaroid, check lighing and composition ...
    and its not $4/pop like a polaroid was. who knows after its all done, you might like
    the image made with your digital camera better and then you can make an enlarged
    digital negative and a print from that .. the possibilities in photography are only
    restrained by your imagination ..
     
  17. ozphoto

    ozphoto Subscriber

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  18. OP
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    peter k.

    peter k. Subscriber

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    yeah, that's the item we were referring to in the first post..
    Might look into trying a Wratten "90 filter.. but a large one.. thanks..
     
  19. alanrockwood

    alanrockwood Member

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    To the OP, it's nice to see that your post is getting some serious responses and useful discussion from some of the posters in the thread. A while back I posted a somewhat similar question and got stomped on rather badly, but that was back in the APUP days, i.e. before photrio.
     
  20. alanrockwood

    alanrockwood Member

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    Spelling correction "APUG", not "APAP".
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  21. Andrew O'Neill

    Andrew O'Neill Subscriber

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    I usually just use a wratten viewing filter. But... my telephone camera does a better job acting as a viewing filter. I can record.
     
  22. jim10219

    jim10219 Member

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    If I have my digital camera with me, I’ll sometimes do that. It also helps with metering difficult scenes (if I don’t have my spot meter handy), when using filters to determine the right color to use, or metering with a circular polarizing filter where compensation can be difficult to nail sometimes. It’s also nice to have a safety shot in case something happens with your film shot, so you’ll at least have something when you get home. Though most of the time I find the different format ratio, different lens focal lengths, and different apertures make the translation more difficult than it should be. Also, large format takes enough time to set up, so I hate making that process even longer by setting up a second camera. Plus, that doubles my load, which is bad on my back.

    I’ll use my camera phone for a light meter on occasion, but don’t really find it useful for much else. Well, maybe scouting.
     
  23. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    I previsualize in my mind and then duplicate it with the film camera before I take the photograph. There is no reason to add a digital camera into the process.
     
  24. Billy Axeman

    Billy Axeman Subscriber

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    Shooting B&W is about patterns and contrast. If you concentrate on that you don't need to visualize anything. When your brain detects a pattern immediately stop in your tracks and press that button, don't think!
     
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