Cow bones in my film?

Helen B · Aug 4, 2006

gainer said:
I wasn't saying or implying that a vegan should try to make film without gelatin. I'm saying that whether or not one eats parts of animal bodies, the inedible parts will nevertheless be found rotting after death unless they are put to use. Eating meat products or not does not change this fact.

Patrick,

From your reply I gather that there's been a misunderstanding of the intent of my original comment - which was meant to suggest that nobody here appears to be promoting a vegetarian or vegan agenda. This thread appears (to me, at least) to be about being aware of what film and, for some strange reason, yogurt are made of.

Copake Ham wrote: "And so they will naggingly scold the rest of us..."
Now I've never been scolded by a vegan or a vegetarian for eating meat. I don't try to tell them how they should live their lives, and they don't try to tell me.

Best,
Helen

copake_ham · Aug 4, 2006

Helen B said:
.....

Copake Ham wrote: "And so they will naggingly scold the rest of us..."
Now I've never been scolded by a vegan or a vegetarian for eating meat. I don't try to tell them how they should live their lives, and they don't try to tell me.

Best,
Helen

Helen,

Pragmatist wrote: "Anyone care to run down to wherever and get a triple burger Stacker and shorten their life???"

Now that sure sounds like a judgmental scold....

Nick Zentena · Aug 4, 2006

copake_ham said:
It's okay to shoot "meat film" so long as you drink "vegan beer"!

Do we really want to talk about how many poor little lifeforms died to make that beer? Poor little Saccharomyces cerevisiae have faces to!

Papa Tango · Aug 4, 2006

No Scold...

Helen, George, et al, it was not my intention to trash anyone that is on an alternative diet. Many times I myself am completely satisfied with a non-carnivorous meal. Perhaps as the human animal is structured as a true omnivore, the negative is not so much the food component, but the quantity, ingredients, and method of preparation that become hazardous. As a proof, simply look at the geometric increase in juvenile diabetes since the advent of tasty fast food! My goal however, is to cheat Mr. Spencer of his prophecy describing the few years I hold on this small spinning ball of confusion...

This has indeed been an informative thread, especially from the photographic aspect. It was surprising to learn that gelatine contributes something to the process aside from forming a base for the halide strata. And that the composition and constituency can affect performance. I wonder if this accounts for some of the variability we see, especially with certain European films?

ZorkiKat · Aug 4, 2006

Some devout Hindus see lipstick, depending on what went in it, as tabu too. Material derived from fish-scales is used to make lipstick glisten.

Amongst Muslims, using animal material from "haram" (forbidden) animals is not allowed. One hadith interpreter went as far as saying that those who carried or wore suede substitutes (ie pigskin), even unwitttingly, during prayers won't have their prayers heard. And that is not even eating pork! Same could be said with the use of products from non-forbidden animals which have not been ritually slaughtered...would any devout Muslim ever use film coated with an emulsion whose gelatin came from bones of cows without knowing if these got their necks slit with an imam present?

streondj · Oct 27, 2012

I'm a vegan, and would love to have vegan binders in my film and prints, preferably on polyester.
Some potential vegan binder alternatives are agar-agar, pectin, gum arabic and starch.

agar-agar has been mentioned on these forums,
though I'm not sure it's been tested.
I've read some brief mentions of starch being used,
but similarly am not sure about if it really works.

Pectin is very similar to gelatin, and also cheap and easy to make at home (can use orange peels or unripe apples).
Acetylated pectin found in potatoes and sugar beets doesn't gel, but is supposed to be more stable and a better emulsifier.[1][2]
So it may be able to make emulsifiers for film that are even more stable than gelatin.
Perhaps later on, can have a business making archival grade film,
using pigments in acetylated pectin on polyester.

[1] Emulsion stabilizing properties of Pectin http://www.scribd.com/doc/105902609/Emulsion-Stabilizing-Properties-of-Pectin
[2] Chemistry of pectin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectin#Chemistry

scheimfluger_77 · Oct 29, 2012

Pragmatist said:
Most of the time, we really don't want to know what is in our food and other products. Take bread and cereal for instance. By FDA regulation, there is a certain limit to "Food Defect" contents.

Take the wheat used for bread. 9mg of rat & mouse poop per kilogram, 75 insect fragments and 1 or more rodent hairs per 50 grams. How about fly eggs, mold, maggots, aphids, worms, animal feces, caterpillars, rot, a cornucopia of bugs, and just general dirt? Well, don't eat anything processed. Or fish. Yummy... http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dalbook.html

I suppose it is all a matter of taste. A restaurant in Tokyo might offer the following:

* Hachi-no-ko boiled wasp larvae
* Zaza-mushi aquatic insect larvae
* Inago fried rice-field grasshopper
* Semi fried cicada (Japanese Beetles)
* Sangi fried silk moth pupae

Just think of all the immunities you are building.
Steve

sepiareverb · Oct 29, 2012

And then there are those of us who eat mostly meat...

Stephanie Brim · Oct 29, 2012

streondj said:
I'm a vegan, and would love to have vegan binders in my film and prints, preferably on polyester.
Some potential vegan binder alternatives are agar-agar, pectin, gum arabic and starch.

agar-agar has been mentioned on these forums,
though I'm not sure it's been tested.
I've read some brief mentions of starch being used,
but similarly am not sure about if it really works.

Pectin is very similar to gelatin, and also cheap and easy to make at home (can use orange peels or unripe apples).
Acetylated pectin found in potatoes and sugar beets doesn't gel, but is supposed to be more stable and a better emulsifier.[1][2]
So it may be able to make emulsifiers for film that are even more stable than gelatin.
Perhaps later on, can have a business making archival grade film,
using pigments in acetylated pectin on polyester.

[1] Emulsion stabilizing properties of Pectin http://www.scribd.com/doc/105902609/Emulsion-Stabilizing-Properties-of-Pectin
[2] Chemistry of pectin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectin#Chemistry

Do you not think that if it worked better than what is already offered it wouldn't be out already? I would guess that the reason they haven't would be one of two things: that using either is prohibitively expensive in a time when film is not in wide use, or that neither of those things get hard enough to actually work like photo-grade gelatin.

As to the original question: Yes, I knew. I cook, so I take advantage of the properties of gelatin when I make stock: that's what makes a good stock gel.

barzune · Oct 29, 2012

Helen B said:
Now I've never been scolded by a vegan or a vegetarian for eating meat.

You've never met my daughter!

ambaker · Oct 29, 2012

barzune said:
You've never met my daughter!

I'm a second level vegetarian...

I only eat animals that eat vegan.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Photo Engineer · Oct 30, 2012

I worked for a few years trying to substitute synthetic polymers for gelatin in film and paper products. There were so many problems with them it was not even funny. The problem list would fill a book.

In any event, avoiding animal products in our daily life is very difficult anymore.

PE

laser · Oct 30, 2012

Gelatin can contain many types of animal renderings. The gelatin used for today's film emulsions is strictly very clean cow (bovine) bones. The standards for food grade gelatin is much less strict than for photographic gelatin.

It isn't a coincidence that Jello was started 20 miles from Kodak Park.

See: MakingKodakFilm.com

semi-ambivalent · Oct 30, 2012

Markok765 said:
Efke 25 in a rodinal sauce has a delicous creamy flavor imo.

Pair those up with Leica's "creamy nougat" lens elements and you'll be eating like a King!

s-a

koja · Oct 30, 2012

At the time when most of us are happy just by the fact that films stay around it seems strange to read complaints about some philosophical problem.

Isn't "coat it yourself" vegan film the proper response? (Or stopping shooting film?)

Vaughn · Oct 30, 2012

laser said:
It isn't a coincidence that Jello was started 20 miles from Kodak Park.

And I call my carbon prints "Jello Prints" -- or at least until I get a letter from their lawyers.

Vaughn

Cow bones in my film?

Did you know film's got cow bones in it?

yes

no

Helen B

copake_ham

Nick Zentena

Papa Tango

ZorkiKat

streondj

scheimfluger_77

sepiareverb

Stephanie Brim

barzune

ambaker

Photo Engineer

laser

Advertiser

semi-ambivalent

koja

Vaughn

Cow bones in my film?

Did you know film's got cow bones in it?

yes

no

Advertiser

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