Cow bones in my film?

[Photo Engineer]

Did you know that your coating a film base with a cow skeletion?

Marko, I knew this about 50 years before you were born.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I hope this means that rap music (the ultimate oxymoron) will go away?

Mmmmm, yes, but then it will return unfortunately.

PE

 

[wildbill]

Mmmmm, yes, but then it will return unfortunately.

PE

TRU DAT!

 

[arigram]

Don't the japanese make gelatine with no animals parts in it?
Maybe Fujifilm is vegan...

 

[battra92]

Yep, I know and I have no problem with it at all. My family has beef cattle so the butcher has gotta do something with the leftovers.

 

[pnance]

Kosher? As i understand it, gelatin is so far removed with processing from bones that it is not referred to as a meat item.

It would be interesting to hear from a rabbi on this one.

To the vegans, after everyone eats the meat off the bones, you want the bones should have a decent burial, instead of being memorialized in film?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Kosher? As i understand it, gelatin is so far removed with processing from bones that it is not referred to as a meat item.

It would be interesting to hear from a rabbi on this one.

For more than you ever wanted to know--

http://www.kashrut.com/trade/gelatin/

 

[Ralf]

Did you know ...

... that you can make a living from taking pictures of cows?

No kidding, saw it on a short TV segment. A young lady photographs cows that the farmer wants to sell or auction. Special and expensive or rare cows for breeding etc. They get washed, a hair cut, make-up (made of flour and water) and even hair extensions on the tail.

 

[eumenius]

As far as I can understand, from the chemical viewpoint the gelatine is just irreplaceable in making photo emulsions. Part of emulsion's sensitivity is surely given to it by reaction of silver halide with some sulfurous components of gelatine (cysteine? cystine?). So these Ag-S tiny complexes form the centers of sensitivity. As I have read, there were multiple attacks on gelatine from different photo manufacturers - they wanted to replace it with something better, cheaper, and with more reproducible and predictable in properties. They've tried some natural non-animal colloids like agar, and some synthetic polymers. And all these attempts apparently failed

The wet collodion plates are working without any gelatine, as well as salt paper - but the sensitive layers of these materials are not perfect at all, and are QUITE slow and contrasty.

 

[Bob F.]

During the tour at Ilford earlier this year, the head honcho of their emulsion dept did mention that one of the biggest problems he has is with the consistency and quality of the gelatine. Came as a surpise to most I suspect: I for one assumed it was just a support for the emulsion that allowed the processing chemicals to reach the emulsion crystals - but it's clearly not that simple (the older I get, the more that seems to become the general case...).

Cheers, Bob.

 

[Helen B]

Here's a (there was a url link here which no longer exists) to a previous thread on APUG, possibly the one that PE referred to.

Best,
Helen

 

[BrianShaw]

The wet collodion plates are working without any gelatine, as well as salt paper - but the sensitive layers of these materials are not perfect at all, and are QUITE slow and contrasty.

So is wet collodion capture with albumen printing vegetarian? No chickens are harmed in the collection of albumen... if the eggs are not fertile, I suppose.

 

[gainer]

Do any of you have some idea that if you refuse to use animal parts for photographic purposes, they will suddenly cease bring used? That we would sooner or later have to bury or cremate the remains of the animals that have died of injury or old age must surely have occurred to you. Why not use those body parts for our own advantage? What if others have eaten the flesh? Would it not still be wrong to waste the inedible parts?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Don't the japanese make gelatine with no animals parts in it?
Maybe Fujifilm is vegan...

No one makes film products without gelatin.

And, the gelatin from Kodak's plant in Peabody is quite repeatable as is Rousselot gelatin. Other sources vary, mainly in BI (bloom index) which is a measure of the ability to harden, spread and peptize (help create) silver halide crystals. Even if BI is 'identical' the gelatin properties above vary from my experience.

This is a non-technical description for those purists among us.

PE

 

[Ole]

During the tour at Ilford earlier this year, the head honcho of their emulsion dept did mention that one of the biggest problems he has is with the consistency and quality of the gelatine. Came as a surpise to most I suspect: I for one assumed it was just a support for the emulsion that allowed the processing chemicals to reach the emulsion crystals - but it's clearly not that simple (the older I get, the more that seems to become the general case...).

Cheers, Bob.

It was also said that they had once tried replacing the gelatin with another similar (vegetable derived) product, but discovered that they would have had to reinvent emulsion making from scratch to make it work.

That is clearly way out of any possible film research budget!

 

[Photo Engineer]

It was also said that they had once tried replacing the gelatin with another similar (vegetable derived) product, but discovered that they would have had to reinvent emulsion making from scratch to make it work.

That is clearly way out of any possible film research budget!

We did the same at Kodak.

I worked for quite some time on polymers as replacements for gelatin.

Nothing is quite like gelatin for making and coating photo products.

It is quite a different matter for some thermally developed photo products. The emulsion is made in gelatin, but then is coated from a non-aqueous polymer.

PE

 

[Helen B]

Do any of you have some idea that if you refuse to use animal parts for photographic purposes, they will suddenly cease bring used?
...

Has anybody actually expressed that idea here? It seems fair enough to have some interest in the origins of the things we use and the things we eat especially as in the case of film, gelatin is something of a magic bullet. However, if a vegetarian or vegan makes a decision about how they wish to live their lives, isn't that their business?

Best,
Helen

 

[JBrunner]

I ate some Tmax once. They need to work on the flavor.

 

[Markok765]

Efke 25 in a rodinal sauce has a delicous creamy flavor imo.

 

[gainer]

Has anybody actually expressed that idea here? It seems fair enough to have some interest in the origins of the things we use and the things we eat especially as in the case of film, gelatin is something of a magic bullet. However, if a vegetarian or vegan makes a decision about how they wish to live their lives, isn't that their business?

Best,
Helen

I wasn't saying or implying that a vegan should try to make film without gelatin. I'm saying that whether or not one eats parts of animal bodies, the inedible parts will nevertheless be found rotting after death unless they are put to use. Eating meat products or not does not change this fact.

 

[dphill]

Holy Cow! I must be tired.
At first glance I thought it said cowboy

Rest,...I need rest

 

[copake_ham]

Holy Cow! I must be tired.
At first glance I thought it said cowboy

Rest,...I need rest

"Holy Cow" - sounds like someone's been talking to Phil Rizzuto!

And let's not forget Mel Allen with a "Ballantine Blast".

It's okay to shoot "meat film" so long as you drink "vegan beer"!

 

[Papa Tango]

I wasn't saying or implying that a vegan should try to make film without gelatin. I'm saying that whether or not one eats parts of animal bodies, the inedible parts will nevertheless be found rotting after death unless they are put to use. Eating meat products or not does not change this fact.

ECONOMICS 101--As long as there is any market to engage in a particular consumptive activity, raw materials will be utilized and exploited to the maximum capital gain.

Translation: Whether gelatin is used in film is immaterial in the larger market picture. The demand of the larger market is one that will continue to find new commodities and placement irrespective of any singular philosophical belief, e.g., vegans. There are not enough vegans on the planet Earth to disturb the meat production industry. Anyone care to run down to wherever and get a triple burger Stacker and shorten their life???

 

[copake_ham]

ECONOMICS 101--As long as there is any market to engage in a particular consumptive activity, raw materials will be utilized and exploited to the maximum capital gain.

Translation: Whether gelatin is used in film is immaterial in the larger market picture. The demand of the larger market is one that will continue to find new commodities and placement irrespective of any singular philosophical belief, e.g., vegans. There are not enough vegans on the planet Earth to disturb the meat production industry. Anyone care to run down to wherever and get a triple burger Stacker and shorten their life???

YES!

This is why I love vegans.

If they become anything more than a marginalized minoriity - then in the short run they will drive down the cost of meat for the rest of us!

In the long run (apolgies to JM Keynes) we are all dead! (Yes, even vegans die.)

Fortunately, I doubt vegans will ever become anything more than a marginalized minority.

And so they will naggingly scold the rest of us as to our short and brutish existence - which will at least be short enough (if they are correct) so as not to have to endure their self-righteousness for an exscrutiantionable* length of time!

Eat meat, die early, make an old age vegan happy!


* Heck, is " exscrutiantionable" a real word? :confused:

 

[sanking]

I wasn't saying or implying that a vegan should try to make film without gelatin. I'm saying that whether or not one eats parts of animal bodies, the inedible parts will nevertheless be found rotting after death unless they are put to use. Eating meat products or not does not change this fact.

That is the point. Gelatin is a by-product of the slaughtering of animals for human consumption. So long as people eat meat there will be residue in the form of skin, hides, and other tissues. If there is a market for products that can be produced from the residue, it will be utilzied. If not, it will be discarded.

Throw away the politics, and the process is not all that different from embrionic stem cells. They will be used, either by implantation in women or for research, or they will be discarded.

Sandy