Could Ilford make Polaroid?

[keithwms]

In addition, do you know for what kind and size of camera and holder the 500 ISO instant film is, it's slightly bigger in size than the 400 ISO Fuji instant film for 4x5 (size 85x108mm)? Do these 85x108mm and 102 x 131mm variants of the instant films use the same holder / instant camera back?

Indeed there are two basic sizes that you get the Fuji stuff in, as far as I know: medium format and 4x5. They are both pack films. I think the medium format stuff goes into all the usual pack holders, that's how I use it. And as I mentioned in the other thread, the 4x5 stuff goes into the Fuji PA45 holder. It may also go into some other 4x5 pack holder but that is the one I use and it works very well.

P.S. if you don't see what you want on their site, then just write to Dirk Roessler and ask. I think his apug userid is Dirk-san.

P.S. Obviously there can be *big* price differences between Fuji stuff bought through your local supplier or megaperls; I have been getting stuff from megaperls that I couldn't get elsewhere or when there was a special deal of some sort. For example, a few months ago, Dirk was selling the 3000 at half price. What you may want to do is get on his mailing list. And just for the record, I don't get any kickbacks from him or megaperls or Fuji, I evangelize their stuff simply because I want them to keep making it. And I will tell you that sometimes the megaperls prices are offscale, but sometimes they are very good.

 

[mabman]

I believe Polaroid still holds some patents on the instant film process as well, with Fuji as a current licensee.

Polaroid isn't bankrupt (this time), and the statement last week said they're looking for potential buyers/licensees for the film part of it (can't remember which off-hand) - they're not giving the tech away, so someone would still have to pay for it.

I'm not saying Ilford couldn't do it, I just don't think it would be going cheap - Ilford may not want to go there with the expense involved and instead focus on their current core business.

 

[keithwms]

If ANY group/company/etc. were to acquire the Polaroid assets, they would surely have some indication of future sales (and revenue) potential of the products they wanted to produce. If not Fuji, then they would have to understand they would be competing with Fuji to some extent. How would they calculate these potential sales? Good question. If the sales were out there, Polaroid would still be in the business.

Paul

There's a big issue though: instant films and throwaways are doing brisk business in Asia. If you factor in distribution and the market turnover (how quickly people use products that you produce) then I think it's quite possible that Fuji can make this work. I think HIE was doomed basically bnecause there was zero turnover, people were just hording the stuff and consumption went below the threshhold at which it makes sense to keep producing and stocking it. There are other issues with the US market now such as the cost of labour and environmental regs and so forth, and the extreme reluctance of the US to intervene on behalf of a company whose share is threatened from abroad. Frankly I think much of the high-tech industry in the US is departing the country as quickly as it can.

[Don't get me wrong, I'm not a protectionist, but I do think that the US has become very unfriendly to certain businesses and there is precious little than Congress is willing to do to help out. This may contrast quite strongly to the situation elsewhere.]

 

[amuderick]

Instant film materials aren't just used by photographers, they are used in quantity in various industries. And, if they continue to be available, they will continue to be used. Digital isn't going to kill much of this core instant photo market because at $1 a shot, it is still cheaper than managing digital files, storing, migrating, and creating prints that can be given away on the spot.

Here is an article on CNN about instant photography: http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/02/14/polaroid.film.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

Fuji can pick up the ball and they should. Write them directly and let them know.

 

[eclarke]

You have missed one important fact. Ilford might be able to coat Polaroid film, but the assembly of the packs and pod manufacture is a very difficult proposition that takes specialized equipment. Unless you already have that equipment it would cost millions to get into this business.

PE

If Ilford were going to do products which must be fabricated like the Polaroid films, I would rather see Quickload type film in FP4, HP5 and Delta!..EC

 

[markbb]

Why should anyone expect Ilford to take on a failed product like Polaroid? Should they start making betamax recorders? 8 track players?


No, of course not. Polaroid have failed because they cannot sell enough stuff at the right price to make a profit. End of. If you (& me) bought more in the past, we may not be in this position.

 

[mabman]

Why should anyone expect Ilford to take on a failed product like Polaroid? Should they start making betamax recorders? 8 track players?


No, of course not. Polaroid have failed because they cannot sell enough stuff at the right price to make a profit. End of. If you (& me) bought more in the past, we may not be in this position.

The key word in your post is they could not sell enough at the right price to make a profit.

As in most businesses, it does not mean someone else can't make money selling the same product, but with different variables - lower production costs, or better marketing or distribution, maybe.

Just to keep things in perspective, after its acknowledged failure in the home electronics market, Sony made a fortune selling Betacams and Beta recorders and editors to the news industry - so even a product that failed to take hold in the general consumer market may work very well in another segment.

So, don't write instant film off just yet.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

So, don't write instant film off just yet.

I'm sure Fuji is glad to share your thought, because they already cover many of the same film types polaroid is discontinuing, but not all. I'll bet they will expand their offerings. Polaroids demise can only help Fuji sales in the instant film arena.

 

[aldevo]

I'm sure Fuji is glad to share your thought, because they already cover many of the same film types polaroid is discontinuing, but not all. I'll bet they will expand their offerings. Polaroids demise can only help Fuji sales in the instant film arena.

Why would a much larger company like FujiFilm expand their offerings into a market that Polaroid - a far smaller company - deemed too small?

FujiFilm is in business to make a profit, after all:rolleyes:

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

Well, with the end of Polaroid, I'd say the market for instant film just became a lot larger - Fuji could make a viable profit filling the niche that Polaroid left. While Fuji is a much larger company, the great bulk of it's size isn't anything to do with instant film - Polaroid has always been the biggest (and sometimes sole) player in that field by a long way. Fuji is already making a profit on their current products, thus why they're still in production, so expanding their offering with the exit of their much larger competitor seems possible.

 

[CarlRadford]

Ilford bid for Polaroid...

http://filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.0

Well not completely true but they are sending out positive vibes! I am sure Simon Galley will let us know what the their thoughts are at some stage!

 

[Uhner]

http://filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.0

Well not completely true but they are sending out positive vibes! I am sure Simon Galley will let us know what the their thoughts are at some stage!

I did not expect that answer at all…

Well, life is certainly full of surprises.

 

[Fintan]

You can be certain that anything at this stage is purely exploratory on Ilfords behalf. But if something was possible to do then Ilford Harman would be the people to do it.

If Polaroid had even 10% of the vision that Ilford Harman have, they wouldn't be in the position they are in. I just hope Polaroid don't get greedy and make it too difficult for another company to rescue.

I think perhaps that Polaroid owe it to 'photography' and their legacy to handover to someone else for next to nothing in finance terms. I'm sure many will think me commercially naive for saying that.

Finally I must say if Polaroid DO make it difficult or unattractive to a company interested in taking up production then their brand in consumer electronics will be harmed. I know I would never buy anything anyway if this was the case. Nor I would suspect would the many thousands of others that are upset with this news.

 

[Uncle Bill]

I think Fuji might be better suited to take up the Polaroid slack than Ilford. I would rather have our friends at Ilford focus on what they do best then make a hash of different technology they are not used to working with.

 

[Dirk-san]

Why would a much larger company like FujiFilm expand their offerings into a market that Polaroid - a far smaller company - deemed too small?

FujiFilm is in business to make a profit, after all:rolleyes:

Fujifilm just ventured into pharmaceuticals - surely a more promising sector...

 

[AgX]

http://filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.0

Well not completely true but they are sending out positive vibes! I am sure Simon Galley will let us know what the their thoughts are at some stage!

And what about the colour materials??

Does that mean I had to send an e-mail to Ilford Imaging in Marly????

 

[Leon]

You can be certain that anything at this stage is purely exploratory on Ilfords behalf. But if something was possible to do then Ilford Harman would be the people to do it.

so would it then become Ilfaroid or polaford - perhaps Harmaroids - hand on, that sounds like something entirely different!

 

[Akki14]

so would it then become Ilfaroid or polaford - perhaps Harmaroids - hand on, that sounds like something entirely different!

That's what you get when you sit in a darkroom for too long.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

That's what you get when you sit in a darkroom for too long.

Actually, I think that's what you get when you sit at the computer too long.

 

[Fintan]

so would it then become Ilfaroid or polaford - perhaps Harmaroids - hand on, that sounds like something entirely different!

Harmaroid 55, beautiful, I'll take a dozen boxes sir!

Thanks for the laugh Leon, I needed it.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Ya know, if Ilford could make a P/N instant film with something like FP4+ as the neg and the Type 55 Positive as the print, they might even come out about the same speed, which would be a major improvement over Type 55.

If the neg were slightly faster than the print, there should be enough latitude in the neg that you could expose for the print and have a good neg. With Type 55, the neg was about a stop slower than the print, so unless the light was flat enough that you could split the difference, you had to choose whether to expose for the neg or for the print.

 

[Ian Grant]

The best scenario would be an Ilford/Fuji joint project to continue Polaroid films. Fuji manufacturing the colour emulsions, Ilford manufacturing the B&W and then Ilford confectioning/packaging both the colour & B&W products, then Fuji distribute them. Polaroid would almost give away machinery as it would be scrapped anyway just to keep the good-will of past users.

Ian

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

The best scenario would be an Ilford/Fuji joint project to continue Polaroid films. Fuji manufacturing the colour emulsions, Ilford manufacturing the B&W and then Ilford confectioning/packaging both the colour & B&W products, then Fuji distribute them. Polaroid would almost give away machinery as it would be scrapped anyway just to keep the good-will of past users.

Ian

This is what I was thinking, play on each of their strengths - I'm impressed to even see a response from Harman, actually. I wasn't expecting Delta 25 to ever be seriously considered either though (even if it was dismissed), so I guess the analogue world is still full of surprises. Maybe things just got a bit less depressing.

 

[Martin Reed]

IR Viewing

Presumably, the problems of IR are also problems for Ilford with SFX. And as for working in darkness... Do you think they make HP5+ with the lights on? :-D. All panchromatic films require manufacturing in total darkness.
.....

This a bit of an aside in this thread, but IR viewing devices, including goggles are standard practice in any photographic manufacturing plant, and when wearing a set it's almost the same as working in daylight. (But of course they cannot be used with IR sensitive films).

For a demonstration of their use see the end section of the film 'The Silence of the Lambs'. We've got a set we use in the lab at Silverprint - the downside is it gets one very lazy at spiral loading technique

 

[tim_walls]

This a bit of an aside in this thread, but IR viewing devices, including goggles are standard practice in any photographic manufacturing plant, and when wearing a set it's almost the same as working in daylight. (But of course they cannot be used with IR sensitive films).

For a demonstration of their use see the end section of the film 'The Silence of the Lambs'. We've got a set we use in the lab at Silverprint - the downside is it gets one very lazy at spiral loading technique

Don't worry, I was only teasing him at the idea that 'normal' film didn't need to be made in darkness . I thought they had IR cameras in fact on the coating line at Mobberley, although that could be my imagination...



I ahve to say, I'd be amazed if Ilford took up production of any Polaroid materials, and more than a little worried about what it would do to the future of the company... Don't get me wrong, on the one hand I'd be delighted to have Polaroid materials stick around (and preferably at a more reasonable price - 20 sheets of Type 79 cost >US$160 over here at the moment ), but I'd rather Ilford didn't go down the tubes because of the costs of doing it...

The happiest most realistic outcome for me I can think of at the moment would just be if Fuji could start making their existing emulsions in single-sheet format, and over the slightly longer term maybe introduce two new types - a neg/pos type-55-a-like and a colour emulsion more suited to lifts along the lines of type 69.